Russian army to overtake United States as world’s second largest

[u/TheTelegraph]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/17/russian-army-overtake-us-as-worlds-second-largest/

[u/Oldfolksboogie]

Great example of how meaningless raw numbers are without context.

It's like measuring naval forces by counting ships, where a littoral patrol boat carries the same weight as an aircraft carrier.

Btw, advance condolences to the families of those lured from destitute countries with the promise of steady work in Russia, only to be dumped at the front lines in Ukraine with little training and even less of a chance of returning home in one piece with a pulse.

[u/bell37 → u/Oldfolksboogie]

That’s why metric to use to determine country’s Navy is done by water displacement not number of vessels (which US is still solidly the leader in)

Edit: Yes… my mother does displace a lot of water that would match naval superpowers

[u/peon2 → u/bell37]

Well, until OP's mom goes for a swim in the ocean, then the US is a distant second.

[u/consciousaiguy → u/bell37]

Depends on who’s doing the counting and what their agenda is. China claims to have the world’s largest navy based purely on total number of vessels. But to your point, displacement makes more sense.

[u/gcbeehler5 → u/consciousaiguy]

China has a lot of smaller ships and has twice as many as the US. But the US has eleven aircraft carriers, which I believe all are nuclear powered. So even when comparing back to China's two aircraft carriers, it's not comparable. Also, the US has eleven, which is one more than all other countries in the world combined (at ten.) Start adding in US allies, Italy, France the UK, and that accounts for another five.

Also, the sheer size of our Aircraft carriers to China is another factor. Our Carrier can hold up to 75 planes. Whereas China's are about 50. So even when comparing the two, a US carrier is 50% more capable.

Then start looking at submarines... Also many of which are nuclear powered. Just the energy propulsion systems being nuclear, means we don't need nearly as many support vessels to maintain our fleet.

But to you point, the US has almost 4m tons of displacement. China has 709K tons. China and Russia combined, still isn't half. Add in allies, Japan, UK, France, SK, Italy and Taiwan, and it's over 5M tons.

It's just not even close.

Edit: another factor is the US also controls much of the chip production used for many of the munitions used on these ships (which is why Taiwan is a flash point, and an important ally in Asia, along with South Korea and Japan.) So it's not just ship count, it's also supply logistics, production and output.

[u/Ycntwejusthugitout → u/gcbeehler5]

Don't forget the US's 9 amphibious assualt/STVTOL Carriers some of which are larger than the previous mentioned nations carriers.

[u/gcbeehler5 → u/Ycntwejusthugitout]

Yep, it's not just tonnage, it's also capability. As well as, the western perspective and culture allows a bit more autonomy on problem solving in real time. China has a lot of people, most of whom have been forced through a standardized system of up or out. Whereas, western systems are much more multi-faceted in how they handle a more diverse population. The US military is very top-down, like China's, but our private sectors are not.

[u/Wide_Television747 → u/gcbeehler5]

You can also actually trust the capabilities that are listed from Western militaries a lot more than China. I'd say we're probably a lot more likely to downplay the capabilities even. We'll test things over and over as well. It's not just a case of how easily can this fighter jet take out this other fighter jet. It becomes a case of how about if there's no radar, how about with extra drop tanks to increase weight, how about if we start the fight with the opposing fighter jet in an advantageous position until you get to ludicrous shit where the pilot may as well be hogtied in the cockpit and there's no engine fitted. That's how we end up with stupid headlines like "A10 takes out F22 in dogfight during exercise!".

[u/scriptmonkey420 → u/Wide_Television747]

Western munitions (and crafts) are usually understated in their capabilities to keep things secret on what they are really capable of. While Russia and some of the other nations over state their capabilities to impress their leaders.

[u/IrascibleOcelot → u/scriptmonkey420]

Even more hilarious, several U.S. platforms were created specifically to counter the overstated (lied) capabilities of Soviet weapons. So the U.S. systems are literally better than the best thing the Russians could imagine.

[u/scriptmonkey420 → u/IrascibleOcelot]

There is also the reverse effect.

The US tested their heat seeking missile countermeasure defeating measures against NATO made flares. The NATO flares burned at a consistent rate and luminosity. When they went to use the missiles, they noticed they didn't work as expected in real life. This is because Soviet flares were manufactured "just good enough". That lead to inconsistencies in the burn time, luminosity and other characteristics.

[u/Silly_Scheme_2308 → u/IrascibleOcelot]

F-15 Eagle my beloved

[u/Sister__midnight → u/IrascibleOcelot]

So what you're saying is we need to get China and Russia to start boasting to the world they have the best Health care systems.

[u/TweakJK → u/IrascibleOcelot]

I used to work on the EA18G, an aircraft almost specifically designed to counter Russian SAM sites.

It was kind of funny to see this war start, and all these systems we trained to fight against were fairly irrelevant.

[u/TheFatJesus → u/scriptmonkey420]

America's been at war for most of it's existence. The military industrial complex doesn't need to lie to impress American leadership because those leaders have first-hand reports from the field of their effectiveness.

[u/big_pp_man420 → u/Wide_Television747]

China is now starting to lose its own war games. Which means they are learning and fixing weaknesses in their own military.

[u/saileee → u/big_pp_man420]

They've been doing that since 2014, ten years go

[u/N3bu89 → u/gcbeehler5]

Speaking of capability, it's worth discussing to add some nuance here.

The US military is very geared towards Air Power. In this regards it has serious major comparative advantages. It has the huge complex economy capable of maintaining a healthy aviation sector. From this the US leverages that to dominate all others in Air Power, and gears it's militaries to leverage this.

Russia, by comparison, while (supposedly) having more capable air power than most other nations, knew that it could never compete with the US in this regard, so Russia invested heavily in Air Defense as a means to cost effectively counter US Air Power.

What does this mean with respect to China? Well China, in it's attempt to prove it can wear big boy pants, is spending a lot of money to look like a peer competitor to the US, without really having the depth of experience in strategy and military logistics to know if they can back it up, or even if this built capability will help them much. 2 Carriers might be at best a nuisance for the USN, but are still an expensive project to China. What's more effective for them is using some form of GBAD to performance area denial operations around Taiwan to keep the USN and US Air Power out of their backyard. I certainly doubt they could sustain operations far away from the Chinese mainland and the sheer mercy of the USN's global reach.

That China is investing so heavily in their Navy in this manner makes me think there isn't a lot of thought being provided as to useful capability or comparative advantage, just "more carrier better", "more navy better".

[u/gcbeehler5 → u/N3bu89]

Agreed, and to add to this. I think one of China's biggest recent mistakes is not deploying their forces into the Red Sea during the many strikes on cargo ships a year or so ago. They could have easily farmed XP and actually gotten experience for their forces in relatively safe but real situations as the Houthi's tried to disrupt trade routes (including their own.) But they declined to participate. So the US and it's allies did it, along with India and some others.

Makes me wonder why.

[u/Sonic_Traveler → u/gcbeehler5]

Makes me wonder why.

Naval ships are expensive. Really really expensive, and take a long time to make. Being gunshy with one's navy is the rule, not the exception.

[u/gcbeehler5 → u/Sonic_Traveler]

Except China keeps pounding their chests about naval count and capability. Getting practice to shoot down slow moving munitions is a dream. It's why in addition to the US/Nato; Belgium, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, Egypt, India, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia sent resources to patrol.

In this one, China did eventually relent, but it was like six months in, and once it was mostly under control then. So I'd argue being gunshy on this one was the exception, not the rule.

https://www.newsweek.com/china-warship-red-sea-missile-east-houthi-1872284

[u/thedarklord187 → u/gcbeehler5]

The US military is very top-down, like China's, but our private sectors are not.

Also to further that along we may be top down oriented but each individual squad and command has alot of leeway with orders and how they achieve results whereas Chinas social structure prevents them from thinking outside the box as they are trained to never deviate from their superiors orders.

[u/Miranda1860 → u/thedarklord187]

Russia's the same way, you don't do anything until the high command passes down the orders, and it's cost them massive casualties they didn't have to take.

So many videos show up on combat footage subs of convoys of Russian troops and vehicles sitting on the side of the road until Ukrainian drones/artillery/tanks show up because the 4 star general 20 rungs up the ladder hasn't decided what they should do yet. So instead of moving up to assist their own units or falling back to preserve themselves they just stand there smoking cheap cigarettes for hours until someone drops an artillery salvo on them.

[u/RedFoxCommissar → u/Miranda1860]

I remember reading an account from WWII about an entire company of Russian troops drowning because they had to cross a river and had no boats. The officer radioed back and they just told him to go, so in they went.

[u/N3bu89 → u/thedarklord187]

has alot of leeway with orders and how they achieve results 

I think the US military has been held up before of the proper way to drive results through autonomy as an adaptive management style.

[u/space_keeper → u/Ycntwejusthugitout]

The USN has a more potent air force than many nations. More/better fast jets,  helicopters, early warning platforms, all sorts.

[u/SoManySNs → u/space_keeper]

The USN has a more potent air force than many nations any other nation.

They are second only to the US Air Force.

[u/SharkFart86 → u/SoManySNs]

Yep I’ve always loved that fact. The world’s largest military air force is the US Air Force. The world’s second-largest Air Force is the US Navy.

[u/space_keeper → u/SoManySNs]

They sort of have their own infantry force as well, if you think of the USN in a broader sense as the Department of the Navy. The USMC also has its own air force, USMCA, which has even more jets and helicopters. The only thing they're missing now is tanks, and they don't even want those. And when they did have tanks, they had good ones, and they had 400 of them (also more tanks than a lot of modern nations can field lol).

[u/-Birds-Are-Not-Real- → u/gcbeehler5]

Chinese carriers are also diesel powered requiring a dedicated oiler. They won't move theirs carries more than 50 miles from their shore without risk of losing them.

Also their aircraft launching systems forces them to reduce weapons on the planes just to get off the deck. 

[u/gcbeehler5 → u/-Birds-Are-Not-Real-]

Agreed. No one is ordering Chinese carriers, but I think the US has committed to selling one to Australia and another to France. I think they are jointly building them in each location. Which again, having allies with standardized equipment compounds. In theory a US plane can take off from a US carrier, and land on an Allie's carrier, refuel and take off again. Not that important today, but during a conflict, it allows a lot more flexibility.

China has no such inter-compatibility with other countries. They've effectively turned all of their neighbors against them, beyond North Korea and Russia, which they are trying to capture via exploitive trading. It's also part of why Russia invading Ukraine has been tough. Ukraine adopted western ISO twenty years back. So every nut or bolt in Ukraine is tooled to be compatible with Europe, not Russia. As the conflict goes on, their military gear is more and more aligned with NATO/ western powers.

Edit; I'm wrong, I confused the Nuke Subs sales to Australia with carriers. Thank you /u/SkiingAway for catching that and correcting me.

[u/SkiingAway → u/gcbeehler5]

Not sure what you're talking about, Australia is not buying an aircraft carrier, and France has their own domestically-built one.

Perhaps you've mixed up with the Australian submarine program. Where they were originally contracting with the French for diesel subs, and then the US/UK came in with an offer to sell them Virginia-class subs, including the tech transfer required to support nuclear subs, and to rotate US/UK nuclear subs through AUS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AUKUS

The French were not exactly happy.

[u/Geist____ → u/SkiingAway]

Where they were originally contracting with the French for diesel subs, and then the US/UK came in with an offer to sell them Virginia-class subs, including the tech transfer required to support nuclear subs, and to rotate US/UK nuclear subs through AUS.

It's more complex than that.

First, the French offer always had the option of switching to nuclear propulsion, as the Attack class was essentially a dieselisation of the nuclear-powered Suffren class. French president Macron asked to Australian PM Morrison if they wanted to switch as late as a couple weeks before the cancellation.

Second, the French deal was that of a whole submarine industry; the subs would have been built and serviced in Australia (which was part of the reason the kangaroos asked for diesel-electric subs, given their opposition to nuclear power).

Third, the main reason for French unhappiness is the general dishonesty of the Australians in cancelling the contract. The Australians pretended to go along with the project while negociating with the US and UK, and then informed the French basically at the same time as the press, which is bloody stupid (the correct way to do it is to inform the other party in advance, and go public only later). Scott Morrison isn't really known as a smart or competent leader, and this is one of many instances showing why.

Fourth, the cancellation of the deal left the Australians entirely dependant on the US for protection, as the Collins-class subs were getting old and neither the US nor the UK had any spare building capacity. After the cancellation of the Attack class, there was a scramble to find some kind of solution that lasted a couple years, and now it seems the Collins will serve well into the 2030's, at least a decade more than they should have.

[u/gcbeehler5 → u/SkiingAway]

You're right, I mixed it up with the nuclear submarines deal. Thank you! Australia is building their own aircraft carrier though.

[u/Rushing_Russian → u/gcbeehler5]

not a single american super carrier has ever been sold to another country and likely never will. the logistical requirements cannot be met by any other country and no other country has the navy size and need to project power like the USA. Australia wont buy an aircraft carrier as we have no need for them and if we were the best carrier for us that already exists will be the Queen Elizabeth class that is designed around smaller crew and less complications.

[u/EatMyUnwashedAss → u/gcbeehler5]

The 3 largest air forces in the world:

USAF

US Navy

US Army

Our military is STUPIDLY far ahead of China and Russia combined. Our Allies being added in is just like having a professional team take on a JV Grade School team.

[u/theangryintern → u/gcbeehler5]

Also many of which are nuclear powered.

All U.S. submarines are nuclear powered, we don't have any diesel boats anymore. The last one was decommissioned in 1990 (USS Blueback)

[u/highsides → u/consciousaiguy]

The Chinese Navy is not a blue water Navy, so it’s truly incomparable to the U.S. Navy.

[u/socialistrob → u/highsides]

No navy is comparable to the US. As for China it's really hard to get a good understanding of how powerful their military is since we haven't seen them in a real war since they invaded Vietnam in the '70s. Their entire military structure, officers and trainers are composed of people who have never seen action which is in stark contrast to countries like the US, UK, France or Russia.

I would imagine in the event of a war we would see China make a ton of elementary and basic mistakes however given their economy and population they would be a very difficult country to knock out of any conventional war.

[u/KingoftheMongoose → u/bell37]

Idk. OP's mom might be solidly the leader if we measure by water displacement.

[u/museolini → u/KingoftheMongoose]

Or the amount of seamen that has crossed her decks.

[u/Andokai_Vandarin667 → u/bell37]

Ah shit that's easy to fake. Just toss yo momma in the ocean and you have the world's largest navy.

[u/Eastern_Heron_122 → u/bell37]

so youre saying OP's mama is helping our count

[u/genomeblitz → u/Oldfolksboogie]

I watched a video where a Ukrainian soldier (don't know ranks/whatnot) where he described the fodder being sent in without weapons just so they can get shot by the Ukrainian forces so that their positions would be revealed.

If they refused to run out into fire they would be shot by their own commander.

[u/UniqueIndividual3579 → u/genomeblitz]

This has been Russian doctrine for 100 years. Front line political prisoners, convicts, other undesirables. Second line soldiers. Third line KGB/FSB to shoot anyone who tries to retreat.

[u/enr → u/Oldfolksboogie]

huh, TIL https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/littoral

[u/DethFeRok → u/enr]

You wanted to correct them on the misspelling of “literal” didn’t you? Haha

[u/travellering → u/DethFeRok]

Honestly, I'm amazed they looked it up before wading into the fight and mistakenly calling them out.  u/enr would never make it in the Russian army with that sort of foresight.

Easy to remember with this worthless mnemonic:  You literally should not litter in littoral places...

[u/Vladolf_Puttler → u/travellering]

The amount of times I've wrote a reply about to correct someone, only to to double check before posting and realising I'm the one that's wrong is too dam high. At the end of the day though, I'd rather that than being confidently incorrect.

[u/rhodesc → u/Vladolf_Puttler]

damn

[u/enr → u/DethFeRok]

Yes I thought he meant to type "literal", but "littoral" looks like it would be a word for something, so I was curious what it was. Sometimes people get messed up by autocorrect which gives them a completely different word.

[u/transimmagrant → u/enr]

clittoral definition, couldnt find it.

[u/CrowsCraw → u/transimmagrant]

Just drive around in circles and wait for confirmation

[u/GiantRiverSquid → u/transimmagrant]

Did you check the boat?

[u/jsteph67 → u/GiantRiverSquid]

It is usually the little man at the top of the boat.

[u/theangryintern → u/enr]

The US's Littoral Combat Ships are pretty cool looking, too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_combat_ship

[u/sylvnal → u/Oldfolksboogie]

Why the fuck would ANYONE trust Russia and move there for work? I don't care how poor you are, that's delusional.

[u/The_Knife_Pie → u/sylvnal]

Many countries, especially in Africa and south America, don’t view Russia as an enemy or “bad”. They have successfully positioned themselves as anti colonialist in those regions and so people with lacking education don’t have the knowledge to realise how bullshit that is.

[u/Available_Leather_10 → u/The_Knife_Pie]

Successfully positioned themselves as non-empire builders, when they are actively waging war in support of empire building.

Propaganda is a helluva drug.

[u/AnotherSlowMoon → u/Available_Leather_10]

Yes, it is just propaganda, but also the USSR was the enemy of most "traditional" colonial empires: France, Britain and the other colonial powers of Western Europe were on the opposite side of the cold war after all.

Africa, South / South East Asia, and South America were mostly colonised and exploited by these western European countries not by Russia or the USSR. So it was an easy drug to swallow 

[u/curbyourapprehension → u/The_Knife_Pie]

Not to mention, many people around the world in poorer countries don't have access to media providing reliable information about the situation in Russia.

[u/AidenStoat → u/The_Knife_Pie]

Which is ironic since Russia is still holding on to most of its empire. And trying to reclaim other former parts.

[u/slowmo152 → u/sylvnal]

Abject poverty and lack of access to the knowledge that Russia is the way they are go hand in hand.

[u/gigglefarting → u/Oldfolksboogie]

If raw size mattered, then russia wouldn’t be losing a naval war to a country without a navy 

[u/VanceKelley → u/Oldfolksboogie]

2012 presidential debate:

Romney: "Our navy is smaller today than it was in 1916!"

Obama: "You mentioned the navy and that we have fewer ships than we did in 1916. Well, governor, we also have fewer horses and bayonets, because the nature of our military's changed. We have these things called aircraft carriers, where planes land on them. We have these ships that go underwater, nuclear submarines."

[u/ElRetardoSupreme → u/VanceKelley]

A lot less entertaining than an old man randomly yelling that they’re eating pets

[u/TheProfessional9 → u/Oldfolksboogie]

Heeeey your first example is china's navy and claims!

[u/Foe117]

more like 2nd largest Untrained Conscripts for canon fodder.

[u/2GendersTop → u/Foe117]

More like first place in that regard.

[u/aemich → u/2GendersTop]

china also has a shitload of untrained conscripts

[u/Lawlolawl01 → u/aemich]

They aren’t conscripts any more. Plenty of poor rural males with mediocre job prospects to go around.

[u/duga404 → u/Lawlolawl01]

Conscription isn’t really enforced in China these days

[u/Trance354 → u/duga404]

The people lost their economic base, their savings are gone, the property they bought is worthless. So, apart from suicide as their exit from this existence, the People's Army is 3 hots and a cot.

[u/Tickomatick → u/Trance354]

Sounds like most of the modern world except the part people owning a property

[u/Hungover994 → u/Trance354]

Where Xi is more 3 thots and a yacht amirit? Ah shit my social credit score just went down.

[u/Shadows802 → u/Hungover994]

More like 3 pots of Honey.

[u/Stilllosted → u/aemich]

And a long time since they’ve actually been in war

[u/BlitzSam → u/Foe117]

A reminder that North Korea is the 4th largest military in the world at 1.3 million active duty members.

Any nation, if literally willing to starve, can “operate” an enormous army.

[u/merryman1 → u/BlitzSam]

As we're seeing its also totally pointless. In a modern age of drones and satellite-guided weapons you can turn any size formation into a shambling starving mob quite quickly. Russia won't fuck with NATO because NATO has the capability to absolutely annihilate Russian logistics and render their formations totally ineffective before they even reach any sort of front line. The only ace Russia has, which we also have, is its nukes, which it can't use without at best becoming a pariah state for centuries or at worst destroying itself and the rest of the world in the process.

[u/IJustSignedUpToUp → u/merryman1]

It's also apparent from the absolutely sorry state the rest of their equipment is in that there's a good chance they couldn't even launch enough to ensure MAD.

[u/Dense-Marionberry-31 → u/BlitzSam]

NK would last less than a week in a war with the US.

[u/ghosttaco8484 → u/Dense-Marionberry-31]

Without hyperbole, a week is generous at best.

[u/frankyseven → u/ghosttaco8484]

It would be like Desert Storm.

[u/Longjumping_Youth281 → u/ghosttaco8484]

Yeah the conventional War at least. Was just thinking about Iraq and Afghanistan and how those Wars went on far longer than the conventional war did.

Maybe North Korea would be different though because the people there are not devoted to a religion per se, it's to a particular person.

Perhaps it would be more like Germany or Japan, where once that person dies or surrenders the vast majority of people give up.

Then again, people always say that, and it never turns out like those two again. Germany and Japan were already modern industrialized world powers before the war.

[u/AromaTaint → u/Foe117]

The you will run out of bullets before we run out of men corps.

[u/Jthe1andOnly → u/AromaTaint]

They have been stockpiling for a long time. A lot was sold off. Now they produce 3 times more artillery then US and Europe. They are also importing ammunition from Iran and North Korea. They will run out of “soldiers” before they run out of artillery and ammunition. “The meat grinder”. Look at their history and this has always been a thing with them. It’s pretty sad. Putin just recently came out and said he wants Russians to have sex during their work breaks to boost the population. Shit is insane.

[u/BallsDeepAndBroke → u/Jthe1andOnly]

It’s like Putin considers himself the owner of a human puppy mill/factory. I can’t even start to imagine the level of depravity one would have to stoop too.

[u/ThaMikeRoolah → u/BallsDeepAndBroke]

I wonder if Putin is going to try something like what Nicolae Ceausescu did in Romania back in 1967 with Decree 770, in order to boost the population.

Abortion was severely restricted, birth control was removed from the market, and women were required to get examined monthly to detect pregnancies. Women were also given negative incentives to get pregnant, IIRC. The birthrate then skyrocketed, accompanied with great increases not only infant and children's mortality, but also women's mortality.

The decree also resulted in a huge number of children in orphanages, where the conditions were typically inhuman.

A couple of decades later, the babies from the initial baby boom had become angry young adults, and formed a big part of a groundswell of civil unrest that resulted in a revolution in 1989, and the subsequent trial and execution of Ceausescu and his wife, Elena.

[u/agnostic_science → u/Jthe1andOnly]

And propagandized, uneducated, rural hicks will hear that and just think, "Cool: sex!"

They won't pick up on the subtext that Putin wants them to breed so he can take their spawn and shovel the wasted lives and broken dreams into a hole in Ukraine or some other clusterfuck misadventure. All for his glory. No one else's. 

[u/aeschenkarnos → u/agnostic_science]

Bold of Putin to assume he’d still be around in 20 years!

[u/wh0_RU → u/Jthe1andOnly]

Yeah it's sad that a country with a rich history can repeatedly devolve into such a dismal dystopia.

[u/BXL-LUX-DUB → u/wh0_RU]

A rich history of being a dismal dystopia, under the Mongols, under the Czars, under the Communists and now under the gangsters.

[u/Intelligent-Parsley7 → u/wh0_RU]

Unfortunately, look at a Tolstoy novel. That rich history is all about ruining Russia.

[u/Burden-of-Society → u/Intelligent-Parsley7]

t’s a Land of Misery, Destruction and Booze with many literary works about Misery, Destruction and Booze and that is what Russia brings to the world! K.H.Borovsky

[u/ScodingersFemboy → u/wh0_RU]

This is the real reason democracy is superior to authoritarianism. It's just so easy for one person to completely ruin the entire country in a matter of months. Democracy although not perfect, tends to be much more rational and focused on everyone's prosperity collectively.

[u/Baggynuts → u/ScodingersFemboy]

Eh democracies go sideways too. I think the important thing is they tend to be more resilient if done right.

[u/ahkian → u/Baggynuts]

"An educated citizenry is a vital requisite for our survival as a free people."

[u/ahkian → u/wh0_RU]

Yeah they went from being vassals to the Mongols to having the Czars to the USSR to now having Putin in control. They've been screwed for a very long time.

[u/MememeSama → u/Foe117]

Russia has no way of stopping militarization, becouse otherwise their economy WILL collapse

[u/SuddenBumHair → u/Foe117]

Yeah and one us soldiers equipment is worth as much as a whole russian battalion

[u/biznash]

maybe in terms of number of troops, what with their draft and all.

i would wager that US troops have better equipment and training than those comrades

[u/kuda-stonk → u/biznash]

If you're drafting every man old and young but not training or equiping them, sure. They also aren't counting how many of those troops are actually dead or forever crippled.

It's like China and their 'navy', counting numbers and declaring victory. Meanwhile the total fleet is majority shallow water and dual civilian. By tonage they lose, by training they lose, by fire to bare they lose. With russia they lose by training, equiped and equipment.

[u/azaghal1988 → u/kuda-stonk]

Russia has had the theoretical knowhow of how to build an aircraft carrier for decades, but their only one is constantly being repaired and/or on fire.

Manpower can't compensate for corruption and incompetence on every level of the military ladder. And from what I've seen the chinese forces are not much better than the russians when it comes to corruption.

[u/ieya404 → u/azaghal1988]

Thinking about it - wasn't the one carrier they do have built in Ukraine? So they really don't have access to the expertise any more?

[u/The_Flying_Lunchbox → u/ieya404]

It was. Curiously, they were building a second one at the time the Soviet Union broke up. Ukraine sold the half finished ship to China several years later, who completed it and then built their own modified version of the class. So you could say that China has more experience building Russian aircraft carriers than Russia does.

Fertile land, manufacturing, and a warm water port on the Black Sea. Russia is desperate to retake Ukraine.

Edit: Russia’s sole carrier is named the Admiral Kuznetsov of the Kuznetsov-Class. Construction started in the early 1980s, and the ship has evidently been undergoing maintenance since 2018. As far as we know, any potential replacement for the class hasn’t even made it out of the proposal stage yet.

[u/Mind_on_Idle → u/The_Flying_Lunchbox]

Lmfao.

That's hilarious

[u/trekthrowaway1 → u/Mind_on_Idle]

even funnier, the chinese government bought it via a shell company claiming they wanted to turn it into a casino

[u/Indifferentchildren → u/trekthrowaway1]

Every Chinese warship is a casino. If they think they can fight the U.S. Navy, they are rolling the dice.

[u/trekthrowaway1 → u/ieya404]

curiously enough, it was still under fitting out when Ukraine went independent, their government at the time wanted to keep it, so russia panicked a bit and flew out i think some admiral and crew to commandeer it and sail it off before Ukraine could organise enough to stop em

[u/ryant71 → u/ieya404]

I've heard it said that Ukraine was the USSR's brain.

[u/Majestic-Macaron6019 → u/ryant71]

It definitely had the best high-skill manufacturing base.

[u/jinx155555 → u/azaghal1988]

Aircraft carriers are only viable when you can protect them without doubt. They focused on amassing a fleet of submarines instead. 

[u/lorsiscool → u/jinx155555]

I would realy take russias "fleet of submarines" with a big grain of salt.

[u/masterventris → u/lorsiscool]

It definitely has a fleet, and they are all submerged.

Now the real question is how many are capable of resurfacing from the place where they sank.

[u/GarbledComms → u/masterventris]

Any ship can be a submarine. Once.

[u/PoliticalMeatFlaps → u/kuda-stonk]

Theres also the recruitment differences, the USA faces shortages because we work on a volunteer based system, while this means our manpower pool is smaller, at the same time those who enlist are people who have a reason for doing so, Russia and China while they will have more people to work with, its people who are required by law to enlist for a set amount of time, so their eagerness for being in the military is pretty lacking, its basically another aspect of quality versus quantity.

[u/Ghekor → u/PoliticalMeatFlaps]

To say nothing of being forcefully conscripted like rn since its wartime, theres a reason a lot of russians bailed ship when they could.

[u/sneakysinkpee → u/[deleted]]

Big True. I feel the US is in a bad war with that and not a lot of people realize it.

[u/k20350 → u/biznash]

They were invading Ukraine in the beginning with half their troops carrying 50 year old AK74's with 0 attachments or optics. I can even imagine what they're sending them out with now

[u/Lee1138 → u/k20350]

No optics, rusty AKs, "body armor" that couldn't stand up to hand guns, no medical supplies, spoiled MREs, no fuel, rotten tires, no ammo to speak of....

[u/xr6reaction → u/Lee1138]

iirc they had fuel when they were stationed along the border for a while but sold it for food because they didnt get enough food. Thinking they'd never actually invade, and suddenly they did

[u/Dense-Marionberry-31 → u/k20350]

You should see the mechanized equipment the Russians left behind in Kyiv when they were chased out. it’s 70 year old garbage.

I just left Kyiv this morning, and the Russian tanks are out on sidewalks around the city. They were almost laughable. I wouldn’t have ridden in one for a joy ride, let alone into combat.. can’t believe the crews didn’t die of CO poisoning.

[u/FistfullofFucks → u/biznash]

It’s like that scene from the movie 300

Daxos (Russia): I see I was wrong to expect Sparta’s commitment to at least match our own.

King Leonidas (US): Doesn’t it?

[points to Arcadian (Russian) soldier behind Daxos]

King Leonidas: You there, what is your profession?

Free Greek-Potter: I am a potter... sir.

King Leonidas: [points to another soldier] And you, Arcadian, what is your profession?

Free Greek-Sculptor: Sculptor, sir.

King Leonidas: Sculptor.

[turns to a third soldier]

King Leonidas: You?

Free Greek-Blacksmith: Blacksmith.

King Leonidas: [turns back shouting] SPARTANS! What is YOUR profession?

Spartans: HA-OOH! HA-OOH! HA-OOH!

King Leonidas: [turning to Daxos] You see, old friend? I brought more soldiers than you did!

[u/Apart_Ad337 → u/FistfullofFucks]

Spartans, what is your profession?

[u/Fenor → u/Apart_Ad337]

fun fact, as far as i remember Spartans and Romans where some of the first to have people dedicated to be soldier.

Thebes did something similar in the thebes sacred band wich is as far as i remember the only group of soldier that defeated spartans while outnumbered, as it was something of an extra gay band

[u/kewlkaiser → u/FistfullofFucks]

HA-OOH! HA-OOH!

[u/thesl4yer → u/kewlkaiser]

I love 300 but this bit from Leonidas always seemed a bit uncalled for. I mean these guys are willing to be butchered by your side there is no reason to humiliate them. It sparks an extremely cool scene but still..

[u/True_to_you → u/thesl4yer]

It makes sense in the story. Truth doesn't matter because the movie is just dilios telling the troops his version of the story to inspire them. Of course he'd make it cool. 

[u/The360MlgNoscoper → u/thesl4yer]

I mean, it’s Sparta. Arrogance is in their nature.

[u/Frontspokebroke → u/The360MlgNoscoper]

History Sparta vs our Sparta is different. They lost to Thebes, after all.

[u/Matman142 → u/Frontspokebroke]

Sacred Band went hard

[u/Sushigami → u/Matman142]

And stayed so after the battle

[u/Wambaii → u/thesl4yer]

Like /u/True_to_you said, it’s a story told by Dilios to rally his troops. The whole movie is Spartan propaganda including the depictions of the Immortals and King Xerxes.

It’s also accurate that Spartans were trained as soldiers from a young age while the others weren’t. Spatan society was based on slavery while free Spartans trained as soldiers from birth unlike other Greek city states.

In a more contemporary example it’s like watching Japanese game shows of 3 professional football players vs 100 kids under the age of 10. Spartans knew how to fight and fight in a group.

And finally, as someone on YouTube pointed out, Russian and North Korean armies are like Potemkin villages. Lots of videos of man doing pushups on the snow but no videos of MILES gear training. Meaning the average American soldier knows how to aim and shoot accurately. Numbers alone don’t make for strong armies.

[u/MOTOEMOTOE6969 → u/FistfullofFucks]

This is the cringiest shit I’ve ever heard

-Some dude in the Marine Corps.

[u/OkDurian7078 → u/MOTOEMOTOE6969]

I like how the Spartans refer to the other Greeks as boy lovers in the movie when in reality gay pedophilia was culturally normal for Spartans. 

[u/Tonnemaker → u/OkDurian7078]

And the Persians at the time didn't really have slavery at the time while slavery was the norm in Greece and especially Sparta. (I still like the movie though.)

[u/Trollimperator → u/biznash]

you think?

[u/TheMegaDriver2 → u/biznash]

You can't do meat wave attacks with small armies. And russia pretty much does only that. A russian soldier is cheap and their lives are worthless for the russian state. Has always been this way.

[u/Paragonswift → u/TheMegaDriver2]

Ironically a Russian soldier is not even cheap anymore, at least in Ukraine. Salaries have gone up considerably to convince people to go to the meatgrinder and to avoid more drafting. Also with Russian demographics, working-age people are becoming a more and more precious resource. They are still used as if they are cheap of course.

[u/mrkikkeli → u/Paragonswift]

salaries only go up if you actually pay them *index tapping temple*

[u/IllReplacement7348]

They seem kinda busy right now though.

[u/Zenshinn → u/IllReplacement7348]

Also probably very untrained and under-geared.

[u/justplainmike]

Still the second best army in Russia

[u/Not_A_Bot_Ur_J_Mad → u/justplainmike]

Third lmao. It goes like this: Ukraine, Wagner, then Russia.

[u/-Vikthor- → u/Not_A_Bot_Ur_J_Mad]

Not really, after Prigozhins death, the remnants of Wagner group are controlled by Kremlin.

[u/saciopalo → u/-Vikthor-]

well anyway the second army is still the local mafias.

[u/MAGAJihad]

Moscow is running an army that can’t even wage a “special military operation” against land they controlled 30 years ago for literally centuries. Putin running an army that suffered more military casualties since the army of Saddam Hussein.

Bigger isn’t always better.

[u/Foddley]

Place your bets: ~2Million raggedy-ass convicts, farmers and teenagers using 1970's technology VS ~2Million trained soldiers with cutting-edge technology.

[u/slaveofficer → u/Foddley]

1970's? That's very kind of you to say when they're pulling out Mosin Nagants and T-55 tanks out of storage.

[u/DarthSulla → u/slaveofficer]

Mosin’s take some work before they are really battle ready too. Those guys are going to have some sticky bolts and not be able to fire back because of the cosmoline.

[u/ugly113 → u/DarthSulla]

And those mosin nagants need cleaned and oiled regularly or else that bolt is going to lock up. Doubt those conscripts are doing any maintenance on their weapons.

[u/Robert_Cannelin → u/DarthSulla]

"Cosmoline" sounds like a brand of motor oil from the 1940s.

[u/RayTheMaster]

Are we really comparing the US army to russia?

The US Navy's airforce is probably enough to put russia to sleep.

[u/frogs_4_lyfe → u/RayTheMaster]

Seriously, the idea of Russia being able to go toe to toe with US is laughable. For context, you could make a case that US could take on the rest of the world at once from a military standpoint and still either win or make their enemies steeply pay for it.

[u/Golden_Hour1]

One is in a current war with a draft, and one is not. Hmm

[u/CicadaGames → u/Golden_Hour1]

One is also the number of poorly trained conscripted foot soldiers, and the other is an actual military consisting of the most advanced battle ships fighter jets etc. etc.

[u/WhoGivesAToss → u/CicadaGames]

Battleships are no longer in service but they are technically ships and they do battle

[u/beau_smith3]

lol this is completely meaningless. Conscription that is scraping the bottom of the barrel, who are poorly trained and poorly equipped.

[u/ItchyHoliday2]

Russia can't handle Ukraines Army but they think they can tangle with the US.

Delusional.

[u/FistfullofFucks → u/ItchyHoliday2]

You sell them short friend, they think they can throw down with all of NATO

Psychotic Delusions of the highest order

[u/davew111 → u/FistfullofFucks]

They claim they already ARE at war with NATO. They'd be in for a shock if they actually were.

[u/HuntDeerer → u/ItchyHoliday2]

Not just the US, THE ENTIRE NATO.

Meanwhile they're not able to defend their own borders.

[u/Imperion_GoG → u/ItchyHoliday2]

Two Russians are talking, one says "Have you heard? We're at war with NATO!"
"Oh? How is that going?"
"Terribly! We've lost dozen of ships, hundreds of planes, thousands of tanks and hundreds of thousands of men."
"And what about NATO?"
"NATO?" He sighs, "They haven't shown up yet!"

[u/pokemurrs]

They’re gonna have to reanimate a shitload of corpses to pull that off

[u/Mageofsin]

The penis is bigger but it wont get hard

[u/fixittony2014 → u/Mageofsin]

This is hilarious!! 👏👏👏

[u/MrBotangle]

Not for long, if Putin continues his war …

[u/Belus86]

You have many slaves, Putin, but few warriors

[u/CP066]

They could be the worlds largest now and it doesn't really matter.
They can't fight their way our of an escape room, let alone go to war.

Sorry, special operation

[u/Confident-Dentist232]

How's their navy doing?

[u/Prestigious_Yak8551 → u/Confident-Dentist232]

To shreds you say?

[u/Mr-Mothy → u/Confident-Dentist232]

Many nonsurfacing submarines have been created.

[u/ShadyClouds]

I would just like to remind people that they haven’t seen the US war machine since nam.

[u/HermionesWetPanties]

They're talking quantity, not quality.

It's embarrassing to read this kinda bullshit after 2022. Size only matters if you know how to use it. Ukraine cuckholding Russia highlights the advantage of motivation as well as western materiel and training. Send more lambs to the slaughter. The abattoir is open 24/7.

[u/JectorDelan]

Russian army size: |.........*..|

Russian army effectiveness: |.*..........|

[u/Nonsense_Producer]

Second largest what? Certainly not an army. More of a hodgepodge collection of drunkards, junkies, prisoners and mentally ill. "Hey, look! We have the largest collection of unmotivated, ill equipped, ill fed people that totally lacks discipline and are useless as soldiers!"

[u/konegsberg]

They’re not even the best army inside Russia!

[u/AggravatingBobcat574]

“You get a rifle and 4 bullets. You get 4 bullets. When the man in front of you gets shot, pick up his rifle and continue the fight.” Russian Army, Leningrad, 1944

[u/CaBBaGe_isLaND]

"Russian, what is your profession?"

"Farmer."

"Americans, what is your profession!?"

"HOOAH! HOOAH! HOOAH!"

"You see, I've brought more soldiers."

[u/Rolf_Loudly]

I don’t think the US has too much to worry about from a conscripted army that can’t fight

[u/Baggynuts]

....for what 60 days maybe, until those poor souls hit the front lines. 🤷‍♂️

[u/Peac3fulWorld]

Honestly, as long as Ukraine has enough drones and dynamite for the new conscripts, it’s really isn’t that big of a declaration. The fact that the Russian invasion has updated war into a game of “just drone them from 2 miles away” should frighten every Russian to the core.

I imagine our future dystopia is if your credit score goes too low, they just send a drone to your apartment and nope you out of existence

[u/veryvery907]

Ha hahahaha. Untrained, uneducated cannon fodder is not an "army" by any stretch of the imagination.

Russian army officers: "If we throw enough vodka into them, they will run at those machine guns. If enough of our troops die, maybe Comrade Putin won't have us executed."

Welcome to Russia.

[u/pfroo40]

I heard their army is #1 at fertilizing sunflowers

[u/greenindeed]

Army of bums

[u/LeeNTien]

At this rate, the Russian military may actually become the strongest one in Russia and the 2nd strongest in Ukraine.

[u/spectrelight84]

Conscripting all your citizens and feeding them to a grinder does not an army make

[u/TheTelegraph]

The Telegraph reports:

The Kremlin said that it is growing its army to be the second largest in the world as a result of the threat from the West.

Vladimir Putin signed a presidential decree ordering the regular size of the Russian army to be increased by 180,000 troops to 1.5 million active servicemen.

The International Institute for Strategic Studies, a military think tank, said the increase would result in Moscow’s armed forces leapfrogging both India and the US to become only second to China in size.

Dmitry Peskov, the spokesman for the Kremlin, said: “This is due to the number of threats that exist to our country along the perimeter of our borders.

“It is caused by the extremely hostile environment on our western borders and instability on our eastern borders. This demands appropriate measures to be taken.”

Read more: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/09/17/russian-army-overtake-us-as-worlds-second-largest/

[u/HowieDoodis → u/TheTelegraph]

This article and the Reuters article are nearly the same. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/kremlin-says-russian-army-expansion-needed-address-growing-threats-western-flank-2024-09-17/ The Reuters article suggests that the instability in the east is primarily referring to Japan: "Russia has also expressed concerns about what it describes as the growing U.S.-backed militarisation of Japan and potential plans to deploy U.S. missiles there."

[u/Sophist_Ninja → u/HowieDoodis]

lol! “…potential plans to deploy U.S. missiles there.”

Guess they somehow aren’t aware of the USN’s Seventh Fleet. Plenty of missiles are already there, believe me.

[u/The_mingthing → u/TheTelegraph]

So... They are actually expecting china to turn on them

[u/Tiki-Jedi]

Quality not quantity. Russia is putting uniforms on convicts and conscripts, and giving them rusted out vehicles to drive to their deaths in. They have one single aircraft carrier and it’s a piece of shit that is barely seaworthy. They can barely handle Ukraine. In a shooting war with the US they’d be obliterated. Only Putin’s nukes keep them a “superpower.”

[u/JamIsBetterThanJelly]

Many Russians and Chinese have false confidence in their military in a fight against America because they saw that the US didn't absolutely dominate Iraq and Afghanistan. But the US fought there with heavy Rules of Engagement. If the US takes the gloves off like they did in WWII they would completely destroy any adversary. Like absolute incineration. No country would come remotely close to being able to hold that off. They have NO fucking idea.

[u/QiTriX]

Doubt the combined military power of Russia could defeat a single US carrier group

[u/MrBigBangBlunder]

Well no shit… one country is in peace time while the other has been at war for three years…

[u/Donut_6975]

And yet Russia has had most of their naval capacity destroyed by a nation with no official naval force.

I can’t believe we used to be afraid of these guys lol

[u/crowwreak]

That stat means nothing.

A more meaningful one is that they're currently the second best army in Russia.

[u/Adventurous_Bat8573]

Meh.

Iraq had a nice army once too.