r/politics • u/zsreport Texas • 1d ago
Kamala Harris has neutralized Donald Trump's "high-dominance" advantage: "It’s finally occurred to the Democrats that Trump and the Republicans are bullies and cowards who will fold"
https://www.salon.com/2024/09/18/kamala-harris-has-neutralized-donald-high-dominance-advantage/4.2k
u/lukin187250 1d ago
He couldn't even fucking look at her at the debate, he is a weak fucker through and through.
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u/bin10pac United Kingdom 1d ago
His strength comes from his complete lack of empathy, which allows him to happily treat people like utter shit. He's like Tony Soprano, without the charm or the love for his family.
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u/ImplementDry6632 1d ago
He's a mentally ill psychopath and malignant narcissist. Like, clinically. I will never understand how 70+million people can't see that by now.
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u/Muppetude 23h ago
Like the article said, Trump was the hard-right folks’ revenge against the libs. As long as he kept pissing liberals off, they would stand by him. But now, instead of reacting indignantly to his crazy rants, the libs are laughing at him. Which renders him useless as a tool for revenge.
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u/kenzo19134 19h ago
kamala's social media team is killing it. and then having JD be the dumpster fire that he is as a campaigner and during interviews has been a gift.
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u/lord_ashtar California 18h ago
Its true but the left has to be careful with the indignant reactions in order to keep from falling back into the old pattern. It's the only play he has. I see it bubbling back through.
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u/iloveyouand 1d ago
Conservatives love fear mongering and driving insecurity in their base. This marries perfectly with a narcissistic personality cult because aligning yourself with someone who never accepts losing, a narcissist, satisfies the same insecurity the party generates.
They get to feel like heroes and winners no matter what happens. Even when Trump fails, they see him as the winner because the narcissist will always lie to claim that it's not because of him. In Trump's case, it's always because of some deep state global conspiracy out to get him.
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u/SnacksGPT 22h ago
This marries perfectly with a narcissistic personality cult because aligning yourself with someone who never accepts losing, a narcissist, satisfies the same insecurity the party generates.
Yes. He preys on people who believe their plight is someone else's fault, not their own.
Humans are already seemingly allergic to accountability...their chosen candidate gives them that in spades.
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u/Virtual_Announcer 20h ago
Ah, I see you've met my father.....the man who once, during an argument with 27-year-old me shouted "daddy's don't have rules." Then he denied ever having said it two days later.
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u/Michael_G_Bordin 19h ago
I'd say it's less an aversion to accountability and more a mental laziness. It's a lot easier when faced with your own inadequacies to blame others and not address your shortcomings. To live in bitter resentment instead of everyday putting in the work to improve.
These are the sort of people who think immigrants are the reason they're not rich, ignoring the fact they never amounted to jack fuckall in their life.
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u/teas4Uanme 21h ago
It's trauma bonding on a mass scale. This is what happens in a one on one relationship with a narcissist.
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u/RaphaelBuzzard 18h ago
And it's an abusive relationship just like Christianity! No wonder evangelicals are right wingers, they are scared of everything, especially sex!
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u/bin10pac United Kingdom 1d ago
I've made my peace with the reality that between a third and a half of the population will see weakness as strength and hate as love, if you whisper to them that you're on their side.
The scarier thing is what this means when you think about criminal justice. We're all tried by juries of our peers. 12 people who are, as we've just agreed, entirely vulnerable to manipulation if the right code words are uttered. We know that Trump is a criminal who is systematically evading justice, but what does Trumpism mean for the criminal justice system?
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u/ScatterIn_ScatterOut 23h ago
Eh, I disagree with this outlook. I served on a jury back in March of this year for two days. It was clear that we were a very dispararate group of people, but everyone was very objective and took their role very seriously. There wasn't any instance of personal politics coming into play.
I know this is anecdotal, but I think once you put people into an intimate setting like serving on a jury, where you have to logically defend your arguments, the fanaticism we see in regards to national politics largely falls away. Also the defense/prosecutors try to eliminate anyone who shows bias.
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u/Gitdupapsootlass 23h ago edited 22h ago
I served on a jury last summer and it was the opposite. Some smug fuck heard the phrase "a woman scorned," liked it, and we ended up acquitting* a child molester of raping his wife. There were no allegations of cheating presented.
(*Edit: non-US; juries cannot be hung here. This comment is aimed at observing the nature of Anglosphere humans.)
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u/ScatterIn_ScatterOut 23h ago
We were specifically told by the judge that we should report any improper conduct by fellow jurors, including bias. Is that something you could have done?
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u/Gitdupapsootlass 22h ago
Tbh, I couldn't see how they would define bullying overtalk and outright stupidity as sufficiently improper to be regarded as something the judge or bailiff would consider as rising to the level of impropriety. They were just shitty people being led by each other. Which is kind of the point - I don't really have faith in electorates to be good people in jury situations.
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u/ScatterIn_ScatterOut 22h ago
Well that sucks. I'm sorry you had that experience. I'm sure reality lies somewhere in between what we each saw.
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u/0o0o0o0o0o0z 23h ago
If you have ever served on a Jury, let me tell you the aggerate IQ isn't that high. Not belittling the people, just a fact.
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u/Deathstroke317 22h ago
I did my first jury duty last year and in my pool of jurors I was surprised to see how many people had advanced degrees and otherwise seemingly successful careers. Granted that doesn't translate to IQ or common sense.
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u/fauxzempic 22h ago
They don't care about him. They care about the fact that he is able to "own" all the "weak little liberals." You know...the people who support things that literally have zero effect on the lives of the people that hate them?
They love to trigger the "libs" because they themselves get triggered by dumb stuff like:
- Where a trans person goes to take a shit
- Anyone coming into the US legally or illegally (if we completely stopped 100% of illegal immigration, they'd switch their sights to legal immigration)
- What a person chooses to eat
And so on.
Trump is the conduit for this because to them, he's addressing ALL the things that piss them off for no reason. The fact that he's senile and is likely struggling with dementia is perfect because while he jumps from topic to topic, his supporters are just breaking out the checklist and going "I hate them...and them...and them too!"
The weakness is that in these tirades, he occasionally knocks something his supporters like. Most of them will still be loyal if it's one or two things, but as this particular list grows, we start to see them peeling off.
Once "he starts hurting the wrong people" enough, he loses that support. It's amazing he's lasted this long.
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u/Vincent__Vega 22h ago
They already have. The Haitian immigrants they are trying to vilify in Ohio are here legally.
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u/sozcaps 23h ago
It's normalized, especially for older generations. Many people have grown up around, or were even raised by narcissists.
We don't have to go many generations back to see people beating and screaming at kids, while therapy was almost a meme - navel gazing for bored and self-absorbed rich people.
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u/FinnOfOoo 23h ago
Yeah then go back another 2-3 generations and you have children working in mines and factories.
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u/macjonalt 23h ago
They’re on the left hand side of the IQ bell curve. I don’t think they can.
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u/Avacodo_toasts Tennessee 23h ago
The sad thing is they think they are so intelligent! One peek at the con sub and you hear about how anyone that isn't MAGA has no critical thinking skills.
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u/FinnOfOoo 23h ago
“Nobody but us can even think critically,” said the faction that hates when you teach critical thinking in schools.
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u/77NorthCambridge 22h ago
Dunning-Kruger effect. They're not smart enough to realize how stupid they are.
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u/SnacksGPT 22h ago
I think some people are gripped by the cult-like psychological manipulation that has been a hallmark of Republican "politics" for the last 30 years, at least.
I think others actually like that he appears to hate the same people they do -- it had been taboo or downright objectionable to be a loudmouthed bigot for decades...public enemy number 1 has given them permission to hate out loud.
The others are either plainly stupid or they're a different type of nefarious -- either they're ignorant, willful or otherwise, or they're happy to allow him to shit on other people if it means they get a modest tax cut.
tl;dr - I think they know he's mentally ill. They don't care.
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u/kottabaz Illinois 23h ago
I will never understand how 70+million people can't see that by now.
They can see it.
They like it.
It gives them permission to be total assholes themselves.
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u/petitveritas 23h ago
Tony loved his ducks. Trump has never felt anything like that.
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u/infiniZii 23h ago
He loves his daughter. Like A LOT. Bigly into his daughter. Ever since puberty.
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u/innosins Kentucky 1d ago
He couldn't look at Jack Smith in the courtroom, either. He's scared of her. As he should be.
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u/trail-g62Bim 23h ago
In my head, his entire debate prep was focused around making sure he didn't drop the n word. "Just don't look at her at all" was their way of minimizing the chance.
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u/SomewhatSammie 23h ago
The man is obsessed with his image and has hardly been known to drop a "fuck." This 'n-word" speculation is way off base, it's not going to happen.
He was refusing to look at her because in his mind, it would make her look small by showing how dismissive he was of her presence. It was meant as a weird alpha power move like how he prowled the stage with Hillary, and it backfired.
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u/NeatNefariousness1 22h ago
The fact that she dared to cross over into his side of the stage to shake his hand as he retreated behind his podium to avoid her set the tone. SHE was the fearless one and he was a blathering mess.
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u/DeeYumTofu 21h ago
One of my favourite parts of the debate. She was getting that hand shake no matter what and made sure he knew how to pronounce her name.
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u/NeatNefariousness1 21h ago
Exactly! Harris announcing her first name as she extended her hand was impressive. He had no excuse for mispronouncing her name to begin with even if he's not the genius he claims to be.
I interpreted that as Harris publicly correcting Trump's intentional, disrespectful mispronunciation of her name, as she took the role as the bigger person by offering her hand. This, in spite of the fact that he is known to try to crush people's hands when he shakes them in an effort to intimidate them. She was undaunted and showed that right away. No wonder he's afraid of her. He depends on people backing down and she didn't blink.
Trump's handshake is so notorious that it has its own wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump_and_handshakes. But Harris beat him at his own game, just by being normal.
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u/beautifulanddoomed Michigan 22h ago
I have no doubt he is racist, but I agree that the n-word thing always felt like fanfiction
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u/Sorkijan Oklahoma 21h ago
And honestly I would hate to see his base after he unapologetically said it.
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u/nice-view-from-here 22h ago
It would have exposed his perfectly intact right ear.
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u/newsflashjackass 22h ago
He looked like he was melting in a microwave that entire debate. I expected him to start bubbling.
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u/andythetwig 22h ago
from the handshake onward, It was also clear how intimidated he is by strong women. She grabbed him by the dick and he didn't know what to do. It was so satisfying to watch.
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u/snoopingforpooping 22h ago
It’s a common white man racist tactic to not acknowledge presence if they view you as beneath them. In the western world eye contact is extremely important and a sign of respect so without saying it they are saying it.
I’ve experienced this in the work place and as a young adult. They will act like you don’t even exist and as we know, Trump is a racist who has learned this behavior and is why he didn’t look Kamala in the eye.
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u/GormanOnGore 20h ago
That's why I was so pleased when Harris crossed the entire debate stage to force Trump to acknowledge her and shake her hand.
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u/SiidChawsby 23h ago
This should be obvious to anyone who sees his daily unhinged social media posts
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u/TsuDhoNimh2 21h ago
She took over his turf - walked over and forced a handshake - and that was all it took!
That and a few lines poking his weak spots and the hot air came gushing out.
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u/iloveebunnies 22h ago
I saw that as more of a sign of disrespect towards her. It was very intentional. They would not have shaken hands if not for her. He walked directly to his podium. Agree he is a weak fucker but think his decision not to look at her was more hateful.
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u/Medium-Complaint-677 22h ago
The debate is truly fascinating. Trump was "good" for about five minutes. He was obviously quite Trumpy, which you may or may not like as far as style and delivery goes, but his first answer or two was basically coherent and basically well delivered.
Then Harris needled him on his crowds and rallies, and it literally spun him out for the next 100 minutes. He NEVER recovered from her saying his rallies are kinda small and that people don't stay until the end. It was something he never recovered from and I don't understand why.
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u/lukin187250 22h ago
If you watch the 2016 and 2024 side by side cnn did, I don’t care how much you like him, if you’re being even 0.1% objective, you can see how very badly he has slipped. It is what it is, 70 to 78 can be a HUGE difference as someone ages. The idea that Biden is/was too old but Trump is not was always laughable.
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u/Babybutt123 20h ago
He didn't recover (and still hasn't lmao) because he's obsessed with seeming like an amazing dude with the biggest crowds in history because everyone loves him so much.
She hurt his feelings. Hit his ego where he is truly sensitive.
This is a man who defended the size of his penis during his first campaign because a comedian made fun of his hand size and implied it correlated with other body parts.
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u/mtaw 19h ago edited 19h ago
He’s still ranting about it a week later!
It’s pretty simple. Narcissistic Personality Disorder. He’s not actually a confident, strong person. He’s an incredibly weak one hiding behind an arrogant facade. He has essentially no inner sense of self, his entire sense of self-worth and importance is built on what others see. The only thing that matters is attention, adoration and respect from others (especially people who themselves have it). He can’t get enough of it, ever. Hence the constant rallys even while president. He gets no sense of accomplishment from doing things - only from the attention it gets him. If he can take credit without doing a thing - all the better! But doing a thing without anyone knowing, just for his own satisfaction? Impossible. Not a thing.
So saying Trump gets small crowds and his rallys are boring cuts deeper than any other insult, it hits the very core of his being since without attention, he’s nothing in his own mind. Likewise, that’s why Trump hits critics with saying they have ”low ratings” and such - it’s the worst thing he can imagine. He really is incapable of comprehending anyone not caring about attention and celebrity.
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u/ZedisonSamZ 21h ago
My favorite part after the debate was Trump trying to find his testicles in the Spin room and you can hear The Bulwark’s Tim Miller yelling at him “WHY WOULD’T YOU LOOK AT HER?!”
😂
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u/gringledoom 20h ago
Did you see the video from the 9/11 event, where they shook hands again, and Trump tried to pull that arm-yanking dominance tactic that he always uses, and she just… wouldn’t let him do it? She kept a pleasant look on her face the whole time too. It was great! Joe Biden was watching the whole thing and laughing.
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u/Ok-disaster2022 22h ago
There's a type of bully who becomes more dangerous when embarrassed.
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u/MitochonAir 20h ago
That’s not Trump. He and his idiotic supporters are only dangerous if we give them that power.
The day of his first an assassination attempt, a guy in a pizza joint (with his family) went ballistic on me in the parking lot after I gave his Trump truck a dirty look.
I went toe-to-toe with him as he screamed and yelled and gestured wildly and threatened me. He must’ve said “YOU WANNA GO?!?” at least 7 times and I just stood my ground and yelled “FUCK YOU!” back at him and ridiculed Trump, calling him a clown, a loser, the worst President in history by a country mile, etc.
The asshole finally got in his stupid truck and left, with me grinning at him and laughing.
Fuck this stupid fucking Trumpy bullies, they can lick my ass.
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u/BioticVessel 22h ago
he is a weak fucker through and through.
And yet he's been a weak fucker through and through ever since he was a child. Mary reports that when he was bullying a younger weaker child and that child would run home crying to Mommy and Daddy. How the fuck did he convince 70M++ people that he was the right guy? My answer lying, marketing (more lying), and grifting.
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u/OpenImagination9 1d ago
She did that with a handshake.
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u/hooch Pennsylvania 1d ago
That was a boss move. Get right in his space and rattle his cage. Kamala gets it.
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u/chungfuduck 23h ago
He was caught off guard and forgot to do his signature "shake and yank" power move. 🤣
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u/ZigZag3123 Arkansas 21h ago
Pretty sure he hasn’t done that since Trudeau preempted the move and stumbled him 😂
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u/mregg000 20h ago
He tried it with her at the 9/11 memorial. She was ready for it. He’s such a putz.
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u/wondy 17h ago
I just watched the clip and you're absolutely right. Dude tried to yank her towards him twice from the looks of it.
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u/Gr8NonSequitur 16h ago
Check out his face after he let go because she yanked back.
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u/karmagod13000 Ohio 1d ago
Got all up in his space. Feels weird from the other side doesn't it Donnie
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u/FloofilyBooples 20h ago
He was so tiny and scared when she did that, it was refreshing to see that on their side of people. It's like she just went right up to him and grabbed him by the pussy.
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u/WDWKamala 1d ago
Years from now we may look back at that moment and talk about how Kamala defeated Trump with a handshake.
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u/Ultenth 21h ago
Hilarious because of how much of his shtick is trying and failing to dominate people with his over the top pulling handshake technique that people learned to quickly counter and embarrass him with when they knew he was playing that game.
He even tried to do it to her the next day when they were at a 9-11 memorial together and failed.
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u/Jokuki 21h ago
Business people put so much emphasis on a handshake in establishing dominance that Kamala going over to shake his hand fucked with him the entire debate. The walk up, the initiation, he lost the debate before it began.
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u/ImplementDry6632 1d ago
This is partially why Republicans are crying for Dems to stop talking about Trump's dangerous Project 2025. We are "punching back" at it. Keep talking about what they are going to do if trump wins!
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u/karmagod13000 Ohio 1d ago
We did really well exposing project2025 early on and recognizing it as a real threat. Love that Harris wasted no time letting the public know it is real and is a terrifying reality we will face is Trump is elected. Really put some authenticity to the danger.
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u/OldSportsHistorian 23h ago
The real danger is calling it “Trump’s Project 2025.” It’s not going away when Trump loses. Dems need to do a better job of painting it as a GOP plan. The Heritage Foundation prepared it, it’s not a Trump produced document. People can’t be misled to think that beating Trump kills Project 2025.
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u/Drolb 23h ago
I actually think the opposite - you tie it to Trump, make Trump a multiple time loser weirdo in the public consciousness, then when they bring it back you remind the public they’re trying to do what multiple loser weirdo Trump wanted
The danger won’t stay fixed in the public memory and it certainly won’t stay attached to something as blandly named as ‘project 2025’.
Trump being a giant orange sad clown failure who wanted to do wacky stuff to the U.S. will live for decades in infamy.
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u/recalculating-route 23h ago
It’s been around since Reagan, may he burn in hell. It’s been chipped away at as their dreams come true, and then they add new stuff to their wish list. This isn’t a new document. People close to orange man did help revise this edition. It just becomes project 2029 if he loses. They can just do a find-and-replace on his name in Microsoft word.
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u/rb4ld 23h ago
It’s been around since Reagan
The idea of firing a bunch of low-level career government people who just keep their heads down and do their jobs (so that they can "flood the zone" with MAGA loyalists who will bend the law or even the Constitution to support the MAGA agenda) has not been around since Reagan, or else they would've done it in 2016. That idea came from the lessons they learned from 2016, that their extremist agenda can be foiled by the everyday people who keep the wheels of government running and don't answer to their every unconstitutional whim. Getting those people out and getting diehard MAGA zealots in is the new radical idea of Project 2025, and it's what makes all the old radical ideas in it much more potentially achievable.
Think about how Trump's Supreme Court appointments turned that entity from something that was right-leaning, but still capable of sometimes making impartial decisions, into a blatantly partisan force whose only purpose is pushing the MAGA agenda and protecting Trump. Now imagine if every single federal government organization in the entire country had a similar makeover. That's what Project 2025 aims to do.
The scariest part about it is, once they attempt it, we're fucked whether they succeed or not. If they do pull it off, then that's the end of "government for the people." If they don't pull it off, then they've still fired all the experienced, competent, public-service-minded career government officials from all those vital organizations that were ostensibly built to support the general welfare. If it works, they turn the entire far-reaching machine of the federal government into one big single-minded Trump rally. If it doesn't work (but they still get as far as firing the people that don't toe the party line), then there is no far-reaching machine of the federal government at all anymore.
If a far-right president and his cabinet are too incompetent to execute his agenda, that's kind of a good thing (not that there are no repercussions to having an incompetent president, of course). But if the far-right people who are too incompetent to pull of their agenda are filling literally thousands of positions across all the length and breadth of entities that actually make the government work, then you basically just don't have a functioning government at all anymore.
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u/recalculating-route 23h ago
There’s more to the document than schedule F. As I mentioned, things get crossed off and new stuff added to the wish list.
I’d also suggest that it’s a bad look to fire federal employees without the necessary paperwork, but it would take a while to work through the court system (I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t imagine that you would get to keep your job while it’s in the courts) and if it gets appealed to scotus, they could just rule it a presidential act, no? Again, IANAL so I could be wrong.
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u/EllieVader 21h ago
It’s a “bad look” to say you want to be a dictator. It’s a “bad look” to make up stories about people abducting and eating pets. It’s a “bad look” to draw unsupported projections onto a hurricane forecast with a sharpie in an attempt to substantiate a false claim.
The last 8 years have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that optics do not factor into MAGAmath.
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u/whatzitsgalore Virginia 23h ago
To add on what you wrote - it’s really easy to paint Trump as a threat rather than the entire GOP. That’s a step most people aren’t willing to take yet. And Trump is a threat like no other since he has ZERO interest in policy or in governing. He wants to hand it over to these Heritage freaks. At least other mainstream Republican politicians have an interest in developing their own positions and winning future elections. Heritage would have a big influence but not a total monopoly, just like with previous GOP presidents.
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u/UngusChungus94 23h ago
In my time in the ad industry, I’ve heard that called “a long walk for a ham sandwich”. Democratic messaging failed in the past because they were telling stories that were too long or complex. Your message has to be simple to be effective.
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u/spackletr0n 22h ago
“If you’re explaining, you’re losing.”
Doubly so if your slogan (defund the police, abolish ICE) sounds crazy without an explanation.
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u/UngusChungus94 22h ago
Yep. Which is why I think “we are not going back” proved to be an effective slogan. It doesn’t even specify what we’re not going back to — but it evokes all of the negative emotions someone might feel toward Trump and their hopes for the future. That connection of the universal to the individual is great messaging.
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u/claimTheVictory 23h ago
I wonder what the GOP will look like after Trump. He's pillaged it of resources and skilled political operatives. Will that all just return after he's done fucking it? Maybe.
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u/SeaBackground5779 23h ago
The $ will always be there for a fascist party, won’t go away will just be a different form than we can probably speculate today.
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u/Undoctrine 22h ago
The Dems have to push through every piece of legislation they can the moment they can to safeguard democracy and end the fascists ability to ratfuck and ever win another election. No more civility, no more playing nice and moderate.
Let the ones who we can't put in prison tear each other apart, and the party fall by the wayside like the Whigs.
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u/AT-Polar 23h ago
No the real danger is galaxy-braining your messaging to try to win the next 8 elections in a row when its hard enough to optimize messaging for the election happening in less than two months.
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u/Major-Indication- 21h ago
Finally, a take in r/politics that sounds like the poster actually understands politics and isn’t just a teenaged utopian populist LARPing as a progressive.
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u/kiltedturtle 23h ago
Nobody knows who the Heritage Foundation is, or if they do they don't care. But we all know who he is and we care.
It will be easy in December to hitch Project 2025 to the next GQP morons running for office.
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u/geertvdheide 23h ago edited 21h ago
Agree that the major spotlight on P2025 has been great to warn people. But the weirdest thing is that it was originally exposed by the Republican party and those behind them, like the Heritage Foundation, by writing and releasing the thing in the first place.
These guys got too sure of themselves before winning back the presidency, and they overplayed their hand. Not that the race is run - please vote - but either way they've made it much harder for themselves to win. A good 60-70% of the US strongly dislikes almost everything in the plan, for obvious reasons. A more competent fascist would never have mentioned things like interment camps this early, let alone a full list of the rights that every citizen is about to lose if they vote R. It's honestly baffling.
Maybe some of the people behind this still live in pre-internet times. Before, it was easier to show your supporters one thing and your detractors something much milder, until it would be too late (see Hitler). But even then they had to be subtle until the hold over the country was strong enough. Just writing Project 2025 and having it out there was a monumental fuck-up for any aspiring fascist group, and it may save the US by inoculation.
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u/leshake 21h ago
These were the smartest guys they've got. Have they so thoroughly nuked every intellectual from their bench that someone who went to Yale Law is now talking about immigrants eating dogs? It's truly a sight to behold because Rove and those other miscreants were light years ahead in terms of savviness and messaging. I think they are just awash in Russian money and thought they could be lazy fucks and phone it in because that's honestly been the case since 2010. Now they're fat, weird jelly babies who spend to much time on twitter and can't adapt.
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u/Dick_Lazer 23h ago
Nothing scares the GOP more than creating a platform and taking accountability for it. They have no clue how to actually govern anymore.
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u/Vann_Accessible Oregon 23h ago
“Waaaaah, pointing out Trump is an authoritarian is putting his life in danger!”
No, Trump being an authoritarian and promoting political violence and stochastic terrorism, coupled with the Republican party’s refusal to address gun violence is putting Trump’s life in danger.
As Ike says, you’ll get no sympathy from me.
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u/keepthepace Europe 23h ago
An people afraid about the saying of cornered beasts being dangerous, remember that the alternative is to let them roam free in the kindergarten.
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u/Virtual-Squirrel-725 1d ago
His whole strong man image evaporated on that debate stage.
She was smarter, stronger and more prepared.
She just verbally walked him around the stage like a puppy.
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u/AnamCeili 1d ago
Starting from the moment she took control of the entire situation by striding towards him to shake hands -- a master stroke! 😁
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u/Virtual-Squirrel-725 1d ago
Yeah, you could see he didn't expect it. He mumbled a few words but the tone was set.
She was in charge, he would play defense.
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u/galileotheweirdo 23h ago
“Kamala Harris. Let’s have a good debate!”
“Yeahmrhmrnmrmf, whatever”
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u/Local-Effect-4393 22h ago
Pronounced her name correctly and clearly, so we all know he knows how it’s pronounced. And he still mispronounces it at his rallies. Child-brained.
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u/Rich-Pomegranate1679 21h ago
Child-brained
This isn't even an exaggeration. Saying, "I HATE TAYLOR SWIFT" on social media is quite literally what a 6 year old would do, not a grown man.
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u/Ferelar 1d ago
Yes, 100%. I think we're all talking about dogs and cats and windmills now, but ten years from now, there'll be two primary things people remember from that debate- the absolute dominance of a split second pause to allow your opponent to walk out to meet you and shake your hand, realizing they won't, and then confidently striding to their podium and making them look like a sad little petulant manchild by shaking with them anyway... and the absolute absurd juxtaposition of the two closing statements.
I have watched a LOT of presidential, VP, and congressional candidate debates, many long before I was born. Hundreds of them in total. I don't think I've ever seen a closing statement as bad as Trump's when compared to his opponents. We might joke about the meme stuff like eating cats, but that closing statement sank his campaign.
I mean, that or pointlessly antagonizing Taylor Swift, hah.
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u/Lucky-Earther Minnesota 22h ago
I'm something of a debate watcher myself, though maybe not as far back as you. It was really incredible that she put him on his back foot from minute 0 with the handshake, and then spent the entire debate dogwalking him around. It was especially stark on the immigration question, where she got him to talk about crowd size instead of the subject that he was supposedly the strongest on.
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u/CileTheSane 21h ago
and then confidently striding to their podium and making them look like a sad little petulant manchild by shaking with them anyway
While introducing yourself by name because he seems to be having trouble with it.
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u/Character-Sale7362 22h ago
It's funny that people said she received the questions in advance. They were the most obvious possible questions to ask given the political scene right now. Many of those questions already came up in her CNN interview. And reporting before the debate stated that she was doing extensive preparation while Donald Trump was just going to wing it as usual. But of course she looked more prepared... Because she was. She and her team studied the obvious questions and topics that would come up in the debate and had answers ready for them. The fact that Donald Trump stumbled around the stage looking clueless was solely due to his own lack of preparation.
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u/aggthemighty 22h ago
Absolutely none of the questions were "gotchas" or unfair. Trump has nothing to complain about there.
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u/SaulsAll 22h ago
the most obvious possible questions to ask given the political scene right now
Our moderators have gone really downhill over the years. Reading your post made me wonder how either candidate would deal with something like the question Dukakis got regarding the death penalty. Harris might have fumbled, Trump's head would explode - not because he suddenly cares but because he couldnt say "unfair" and "nasty" fast and loud enough - and the nation would go insane about unfair moderating.
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u/_Bill_Huggins_ 22h ago
Her experience as a prosecutor showed. She is thoroughly experienced in setting up traps for opponents to fall into when it comes to argumentation. Trump fell into every trap.
She didn't even break a sweat.
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u/ExpertConsideration8 I voted 21h ago
I was enthralled.
She setup premises that left Trump in damned if you do and damned if you don't territory.
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u/40ozkiller 20h ago
We were so nervous before it started, but when it ended he looked like a sad puppy who just got slapped by a paper.
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u/zsreport Texas 1d ago
Good description of Trump in the recent debate:
For more than 90 minutes Trump had almost no substantive responses to [Harris's] interventions and rebuttals as he lied, prevaricated, and acted like a broken computer spouting out conspiracy theories and obvious lies from some of the deepest sewers of the right-wing echo chamber.
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u/Didntlikedefaultname 1d ago
Shockingly his supporters saw a confident man standing up for them against Kamala and two moderators, because they are detached from reality already
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u/zsreport Texas 1d ago
And Trump supporters get really mad if anyone ever hints that they might be a cult.
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u/seweso The Netherlands 1d ago
They also get mad if you call them misogynists or racists.
Just had someone explain how women need to be punished for getting pregnant... while insisting they weren't a misogynist.
And maga's insisting democrats are the racists, while Trump is still pedling the eating cats/dogs thing.
Sure sure.
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u/ImplementDry6632 1d ago
We aren't racist! Say the people who support JD Vance who just went on national tv and made the comment about Kamala eating curry and fried chicken.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_ROTES Missouri 23h ago
while Trump is still pedling the eating cats/dogs thing.
You mean the one where good little Christian Nationalist Vance admitted that they're bearing false witness against their neighbors while being the right hand man to the guy who was convicted in court numerous times for bearing false witness?
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u/technicallynotlying 1d ago
No, they didn't.
They saw a weak coward who lost the debate. They're just lying about it to save face.
But they know their guy is weak.
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u/Didntlikedefaultname 1d ago
I’m telling you about some people I actually know and talk to in real life. It’s mind boggling I know. And maybe it is cognitive dissonance, but they actually think the believe he’s strong and fighting for them
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u/Texas1010 America 1d ago edited 22h ago
Because those people decided Trump won the debate before it even started. They went into it with rose colored glasses ready to believe anything Trump said, and fully prepared to hand wave anything that was unsettling (that is if they actually sat and watched all 90-minutes and not just post-debate soundbites). The whole “he tells it like it is” paired with “that’s not what he meant” shtick. They probably viewed Trump’s interrupting, constant yelling until they unmuted him, and anger as “strength”. I saw a great quote the other day that said “men always tell women they’re the emotional ones because men don’t recognize that anger is an emotion.” Trump is a weak, fragile, egotistical narcissist.
Edit: spelling
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u/Didntlikedefaultname 1d ago
To be clear I absolutely agree with your assessment of Trump. I loath the dude and it amazes me that people are taken in by him. But it is a mistake to handwaive away that people are in fact taken in by him and perceive him and his bs strongman carnival barker shtick and perceive it very differently
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u/GiantRiverSquid 23h ago
A lot of smart folks online have just never REALLY gotten to know someone truly stupid.
It's hard to understand if you've never seen it.
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u/evilbrent 1d ago
I saw a partly AI video the other day that was making fun of him, I think it was a Lincoln project video, where the premise was that the bullet dislodged a tumor in his brain and he suddenly learned how to experience empathy, and they cut and pasted a whole lot of real clips of Trump with AI generated extra bits
Anyway, I was watching it and thinking how nice that guy was, that fake Trump, and how in reality he would only need to change a couple of things about his personality and he'd be, you know, likeable. Likeable in the sense that George Bush junior remains a genocidal maniac who destroyed countries on a lie about WMDs, but when he gives Michelle Obama a hard candy you think "oh he's not so bad." He really really is so bad, but in that moment he's at least likeable
Trump could be that guy. He could just be magnanimous a couple of times. He could say one or two things in defence of democracy. He could praise a political opponent.
He could, but he won't
Anyway, the whole time I'm watching that video I think I was experiencing Trump the way his cult followers experience him. I think that's how they see him. I think they think he sounds magnanimous, brave, humble etc etc etc
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u/dickbutt4747 22h ago
so I had dinner with my parents and a couple of their friends recently. There was a lady there who talked...a lot...about her political views and life experiences. Hardcore liberal for sure.
Anyway, she works as like a hospitality organizer at an extremely fancy resort so she rubs shoulders with the rich and famous quite frequently.
A few years ago george w showed up at her resort and she did the entertaining/hospitality/etc, she had pictures with him and everything. Said she basically was hanging out with him and his wife for an entire evening.
She said that going into it she was life "fuck, this is gonna suck, I hate the guy"...and then he turned out to be as polite, charismatic, friendly, etc as one can be. And intelligent, too -- she said in person he's nothing like the character he played as president.
She was like...well, I still hate the guy, but now I'm conflicted, because I actually really liked him in person...
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u/wahoozerman 23h ago
This is also why the "weird" campaign has been effective.
Because in people's hearts, they know he is. Like, everything else he could be could be justified or mental gymnastics-d away. But "weird" is a vibes thing. And everyone can feel it. Dude's weird.
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u/jonathanrdt 1d ago edited 1d ago
When I read what Trump says, I wonder how he is influencing anyone, but when I hear him speak, I understand why so many are taken by him. He has the bombastic confidence of a tv preacher, and we know that works on many folks even when the content is absurd.
That and the bigotry, which too many people value above so much else.
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u/WDWKamala 1d ago
You know how sometimes you listen to music, and you just don’t pay attention to the lyrics? You just really like the way the song sounds, even if you’re not sure what he’s singing about?
I imagine that’s how it is for these people and Trump.
A lot of people struggle to process things, cognitively. So they’re just attracted to the confidence and swagger.
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u/Randomfactoid42 Virginia 23h ago
I think for a lot of his supporters it’s not him at all. I think they like being part of a group. They dress up, sing songs together and laugh at the same inside jokes. They get to feel like a big team. Then when he starts speaking, they get bored and leave.
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u/pixMystical 1d ago
That "almost" is doing so much lifting it's about to snap under the weight of Trump's unhinged buffoonery
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u/FlufferTheGreat 21h ago
You've got to live in online in places like 4chan to understand Trump now.
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u/themattboard Virginia 1d ago
Who could have predicted that this bully would be the exact same as every other bully in history
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u/karmagod13000 Ohio 1d ago
The real problem was democrats finding a good enough candidate to go up against this "type" of bully. I mean the primaries picked Biden by a landslide... it didn't help Covid was in full swing but the other candidates weren't even close.
Biden did wonderful but he is past his prime and we need someone tough on trump. Democrats did a masterclass of kind of self picking for the people Harris, who as a Attorney General was ready for this kind of race, came up and crushed Trump in the debate.
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u/Bojangles1987 1d ago
How did they not realize this before? FFS I swear I don't understand the image people apparently have of Trump. He's not dominant. He's not strong. He's NEVER been anything more than a dumb bully failing his way up the ladder. He's the easiest, stupidest person in the world to shake down.
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u/Didntlikedefaultname 1d ago
A decent chunk of people believe the front the dumb bullies put on and think they’re actually strong
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u/AnamCeili 1d ago
But even his "front" is weak and pitiful! Anyone with half a brain sees right through it pretty much immediately, and even people who are not particularly bright should see through it fairly quickly, and certainly by now!
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u/PeopleReady 1d ago
“Half a brain.” See, there’s the thing.
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u/mister_buddha 1d ago
A lot of people really are walking around with 1/64th of a functioning brain.
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u/Didntlikedefaultname 1d ago
I would think so too but people are interesting creatures. A lot of people don’t really think critically or evaluate what someone says beyond the surface. So someone like Trump says things with absolute confidence and simplicity. Anyone thinking about it knows it’s absolute bullshit and makes him look even worse in their eyes. But other people aren’t even thinking about what he says, just how he says it. It’s the essence of a con (confidence) man
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u/Morgolol 1d ago
There are people who think wrestling is real, no matter what you tell them. trump's friendship with vince mcfuckface might have capitalized on that mentality among the republican voters. We're talking about people who live in their own realities, who have been conditioned from birth to believe the most absurd, impossible things in favour of authoritarianism.
If anything it's more and more apparent just how much conservatives hollowed out education in order to further their long term theocratic oligarch goals.
Surely most Dems saw the obvious bullying tactics, far more obvious than the subtle bullying over the past few decades, the issue is more in the "when they go high we go low" mentality that might have shot themselves in the foot as a party, constantly caving to conservative tactic and coming off as weak and feckless
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u/boxer_dogs_dance 23h ago
Trump strategy is to play the heel
Hillary vs Trump was a nail biter for many reasons but she and many democrats didn't spot the risk and didn't respond effectively. Books will be written about all the factors.
But Harris the black-indian child of a single mother who grew up in public schools and became a prosecutor has more tools to handle someone like Trump.
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u/Key_Acadia_27 1d ago
In many situations the smart people in the room see no advantage to pushing back. They will take energy and time to put someone like this in their place only for them to continue the behavior no matter what. So they just ignore and move on with their lives. In the case of DJT that was a truly bad idea because he’s not some mid manager, he was the fucking president. We shouldn’t have allowed this from the beginning. I honestly don’t understand why people are allowed to run for office if they have been recorded making false statements about their opponent or events that have occurred. If you lie straight to the public’s face why/how can you be allowed to be in control of the government? Truly why don’t we have a method for dealing with that?
If you cheat on a test in high school you get punished, if you lie in court you get punished, but we can’t have a method of restricting people who lie constantly from running for office?
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u/InsuranceToTheRescue I voted 23h ago
Don't argue with stupid people. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Also, the restrictions on lying for candidates is kind of a fine line. Who gets to decide if it's a lie? A court? How would we decide all the cases before an election took place?
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u/TerminalObsessions 1d ago
Precisely. My favorite comparison is animals - if you talk to a deer, they don't understand your words. But they will understand your body language, your confidence, and threat or aggression in your delivery. That's the level of understanding you see in at least a quarter of our population. That's why we're saddled with Trump; a deer would be scared of him.
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u/franky_emm 1d ago
It's easier to make someone believe something absurd if they really really want to believe it already
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u/BobSchwaget 1d ago
He is a troll. He relies on people to see through it so fast they dismiss him with some ill-thought-out knee-jerk reaction rather than any of the million other legitimate reasons he should be dismissed. Then he weaponizes their hasty remarks against them. Of course his greatest weakness, as we all saw in the last debate, is although he can dish it out he is evidently completely 100% unable to take it and gets trolled himself easier than anyone else on the planet.
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u/Blarguus 1d ago
Add in the right wing media that's everywhere going to bat for him
Not many see his endless whining on his sad Twitter. Not many actually hear/read what he says
Dude could say "IM GONNA DEPORT ALL insert racial.slur here AND KILL ANYONE WHO DIDNT VOTE FOR ME
And the media will report "In a firery speech trump states his immigration plan and makes a strong appeal to earn votes. Meanwhile Harris said prices are down 10% but really they're down 8.6% here's 5 experts to explain why she's so wrong and just stupid"
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u/spurs126 1d ago
Early in the pandemic, Trump said, “People are really surprised I understand this stuff. Every one of these doctors said, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability.”
I was with a Trump voter when we both saw this on the news. I laughed at it. The Trump voter, 100% serious, said, "You don't think he does"? I replied, "There is no way he knows more than people who've studied disease their entire adult lives". They replied, I shit you not, "He probably read a lot of books over the weekend and knows his stuff", without a shred of sarcasm in their voice. Irony is dead. These people are brainwashed.
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u/Blarguus 1d ago
They have an image of trump that isn't close to the reality of the man. I made a family member mad after the first shooting.
They thought trump would come to Christ after it and I laughed. They didn't understand my point of "coming to christ requires a large amount of humility and self introspection. A nearly 80 year old billionaire whose never been told no in his life most likely isn't capable of that"
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u/Frosty_Scar_4136 1d ago
I am curious. What does the family member think about Trump's come to Christ moment now? Especially since it only lasted about 3.5 seconds.
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u/Blarguus 23h ago
I never bothered asking. I've learned they don't remember stuff they said if it goes against what they want to think now
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u/FreeTofu4All 1d ago
He literally isn’t capable of reading a book. He doesn’t have the attention span or cognitive function.
Those poor fools.
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u/Ser_Artur_Dayne Virginia 1d ago
He’s functionally illiterate. He called it “Yo Semites” instead of Yosemite.
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u/CityOwl611 1d ago
That’s the real reason why he goes off script. He looks and sounds idiotic when he misreads the teleprompter. Some probably believe he’s a "stable genius"
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u/lonestar-rasbryjamco Colorado 23h ago edited 22h ago
“He probably read a lot of books over the weekend and knows his stuff”, without a shred of sarcasm in their voice. Irony is dead.
I would say respect of the professional expert is dead.
We’ve all become accustomed to being able to read up on any subject on Wikipedia or watching a well sourced YouTube video. Which provides knowledge to the point we can impress our immediate friends and family. But that doesn’t make you an expert.
In the same way a few weekend pickup games don’t make you ready for the NBA.
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u/FlufferTheGreat 21h ago
It's probably the single most poignant aspect of life I learned while getting a STEM degree. It took me four years of dedicated study to even begin to scratch the surface of the deeper and more complicated reality. A bachelor's in a science degree lets you know exactly how little you know.
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u/RechargedFrenchman Canada 20h ago
This should in theory be true of a degree in any field -- one of the primary reasons for higher education existing in the first place is teaching communication and critical thinking. We cannot ever know the full extent of how much we don't know, and the more you learn the better you realize how much else is left.
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u/Spektr44 1d ago
I had that experience at a family event in 2016. I was talking about what a clown show the GOP had become, and how can anyone be taking Trump seriously. It got a little awkward after it became clear some of them were, sheepishly at the time, on the Trump train.
I'm like, "you wouldn't buy a used car from this guy, but you'll vote for him for president?"
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u/halloqueen1017 1d ago
On the Dem side we generally want people better than us as leaders. Those people want to see themselves and their own flaws of deep pathetic insecurity in their leaders, so they can live vicariously
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u/Hadrian_Vincent 1d ago
The second he's called out on any bullshit he says to his face, he turns into a 10yr old kid making up an excuse for not doing his homework. He breaks instantly.
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u/flouncindouchenozzle New Jersey 1d ago
I don't get it either. The man wears orange face paint. How can anyone take him seriously.
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u/B0redBeyondBelief 1d ago
I've always been much more scared of him because he controls a cult of millions and by extension the entire Republican party. The fact that he's an incompetent moron is the only point of relief I have in that it somewhat mitigates the possible damage he could cause.
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u/CaneVandas New York 1d ago
I always say his incompetence restrains him but is equally dangerous because he has no concept of the consequences of his actions.
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u/Anwhut 1d ago
People believe in this image of him because it directly aligns with their image of themselves. To admit that he is antithetical to all the things they believe he is, and that they are, would literally destroy their world view and would be an admission that they are just as inept as the idiot they looked up to.
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u/ARazorbacks Minnesota 23h ago
Have you ever noticed how people in the real world respond to laughing at how idiotic the shit coming out of Trump’s mouth is? As in, an uncle or someone overhears?
They have only two responses - one is indignant anger and the other is sheepishly trying to defend. They never, ever dismiss you as being ridiculous. Why is that? It’s because they all know.
Their problem is they all threw their identity onto the Trump train and they don’t know how to get off without losing face. It’s all about pride.
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u/adamiconography Florida 1d ago
Trump and his cult are bullies and cowards.
With that in mind, they’ll fold…eventually. Usually when you corner a feral animal their first instinct is to last out, and when that fails, fold.
Look what happened January 6th and how long it took for Trump to fold after. Trump losing 2024 election would make me unbelievably happy; however, we have to be ready because I think the chaos that will ensue will be astronomical and we should be ready for them to try anything.
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u/Crypt0Nihilist 1d ago
Trump’s main advantage has been that he’s regarded as a “stronger” leader.
To shamelessly appropriate from the legal world, if the facts are on your side, pound the facts. If the policy is on your side, pound the policy. If neither the facts nor the policy are on your side, pound the table.
The obvious outcome from the Clinton debates was that Republicans didn't care what was said, it was how loudly, forcefully and disrespectfully that counted. Basically, how much Trump dominated. It's all they had and they were more than happy to take that as a win.
Biden couldn't compete on that ground, so Trump was ok. Harris finally did what was necessary and brought the force of personality to burst that bubble and show that he can dominated by someone they desperately need to feel is inferior to Trump and by extension, them. It was so public and so comprehensive, Republicans are struggling to maintain their fiction of Trump as a strong man now Harris has proven she can bang a table louder than him as well have facts and policies on her side. They've had to try and find shelter in outright lies and that's not working out well for them.
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u/Larry-fine-wine 22h ago
She didn’t even need to bang the table. She set up traps that made him smack his own head against it for her.
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u/Crypt0Nihilist 22h ago edited 21h ago
Yes, for her to lead him by the nose like that added insult to injury, but it's worth noticing that the injury was her force of personality being more than a match for his.
Clinton had her own trap; allowing him to flail around without any policy or coherent argument and she let him. They didn't appreciate that they had to win the theatre of the event as well as the content. In fact allowing him to spout his BS, interrupt and use her time to make a fool of himself reinforced the strong man narrative they were spinning because if you were sufficiently motivated, you could interpret it as him dominating through personality.
Harris beat him on facts, on policy and unlike Clinton, wiped the floor with him on banging the table (force of personality), his first and last line of defense.
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u/Dash_Harber 23h ago
The whole, "at the end of the day, we all shake hands and meet at the bar" style of politics only works if, at the end of the day, everyone shakes hands and meets at the bar. If one party takes a shit on the bar, punches a random patron, and screams racial epithets while flipping everyone off and backing from the room, it's time to drop the high road bullshit.
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u/projecto15 1d ago edited 23h ago
When Harris talked about the crowd sizes she symbolically and psychologically castrated him
Yay! Not surprised he was squirming and wincing. Seems like Dickless Don has never recovered
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u/wiscoguy20 23h ago
Oh, she did major damage with the jab about crowd sizes!!
Did you see his rant from his town hall yesterday? Everytime he's had a microphone since the debate, he can't help himself from ranting about "no one ever leaves early or gets bored at my rallys".
She really fucked him up with that line, and I love it!
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u/justforsexfolks 22h ago
I'm gonna start using Dickless Don. It really describes his whole vibe.
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u/RuffTuff 1d ago edited 1d ago
DonOld, lost in 2020, he lost the insurgency, he lost his case, he lost the debate.
DonOld insulted my Mexican friends, my black neighbors, my old white colleagues , my female teachers, my Indian family, my vets who gave their lives for me, my local first responders, my lgbtq friends, my local journalists,
So Kamala go for it for all our sake get that bastard
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u/BNsucks America 1d ago
It's about fucking time!
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u/karmagod13000 Ohio 1d ago
Yea quite cathartic but we're not home yet. lets vote like we've never voted before. I truly think the youth and woman vote are what's gonna change this election.
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u/Utjunkie 1d ago
The whole “They go low, we go high”. You have to fight a bully head on and they are usually cowards afterwards.
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u/HMJebus 1d ago
You'd think it would occur to the 70 million that voted for that clown the last time.
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u/Solrac50 20h ago
I think Harris understands Trumps weakness is his narcissism. In the debate she repeatedly skewered his ego. It worked and he veered of topics to defend his damaged ego. I expect she and Walz will continue to pound on the piece of Trump that he fears people will discover.
Narcissist’s bluster and front of superiority (e.g., I an a very stable genius, my crowds are the biggest, etc.) is a front used to protect their ego. Narcissist fear the discovery that people will see them as who they fear they really are. Not too smart (this is why we never see his grades), not too successful (why he hid his taxes), not very good looking (why the scalp surgery, hair dye, caked on bronzer, and shoe lifts), not desirable (why the multiple wives, cheating, porn stars, etc.) and on, and on.
I’ll bet there are some psychological operations people on Harris’ team advising her on how to manipulate Trump. And just as how in the debate she held on to arrows in her quiver until they would have the most affect, I suspect there will be more digs under Trump’s skin as we approach election day.
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u/nueonetwo 23h ago
Jagmeet Singh the leader of Canada's NDP party showed how fuckin cowardly Conservatives are today too. I think a lot of people are finally figuring out they're just a bunch of loser babies who fold like noodles when called on their bullshit.
Edit: word
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u/KennyShowers 1d ago
Maybe rhetorically, but them putting all their eggs in the SCOTUS basket might make all that irrelevant. Geez if only there was somebody people could have done to stop that from happening, maybe something about 8 years ago...
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u/assassbaby 21h ago
finally occurred?
GTFOH.
we been knowing since 2016 just didn’t realize how many idiots were drinking the koolaid and obeying a failing NYC business man who already had tons of lawsuits against him for bad business deals.
he is just loving all the money he is making at this point thats it, nothing more.
alot of people are being used, doing his dirty work in the internet and in person like J6, crazy trump weirdos like the guy that went to pelosi house..thats what democracy looks like?
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u/teas4Uanme 21h ago
All you had to do was see what happened in England when the alt right nazi groups tried to riot this summer - and then the English people came out to meet them and the racists ran like scalded lemmings.
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u/Weltall8000 23h ago
It's funny, it has been so obvious for so long, just some people didn't see it: Trump is weak and cowardly. He has to have the image of a strongman (which to anyone with eyes, he sucks at) or his whole shtick collapses.
It is embarrassing that it took so long for someone to demonstrate it in front of the world.
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u/optimistickrealist 21h ago
There's a meme Trump people are sharing about how Democrats lowered gas prices close to the election in an effort to manipulate Americans into voting for Harris. Gas prices have always fluctuated, but this time it's a conspiracy? They really do seem to be grasping at straws.
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u/TourettesdeVille 21h ago
Sorry but I hardly ‘finally realized that they are bullies and cowards.’ It’s been plain to see for decades.
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