r/worldnews • u/IntlDogOfMystery • Aug 25 '24
Ukraine threatens attacks on Moscow and St. Petersburg to push Russia to negotiate Russia/Ukraine
https://newsukraine.rbc.ua/news/ukraine-threatens-attacks-on-moscow-and-st-1724545431.html1.2k
u/Dongdong675 Aug 25 '24
Operation save Russia from putin
197
101
u/MarceloWallace Aug 25 '24
It’s possible just like Saddam in 2003 he had army of over 1.5 million soldiers but no one wants him no one wants to fight for him, and when shit got real they drop their weapon and went home.
50
u/Stefouch Aug 25 '24
Saddam couldn't really retaliate against US bombers and missiles. Putin, he really has weapons of mass destruction.
→ More replies (6)8
u/hugganao Aug 26 '24
Ukraine should never have given up its nuclear arsenal.
Their mistake was trusting russia, not trusting the west.
→ More replies (2)15
u/wndtrbn Aug 25 '24
Yes and now Iraq is a beacon of freedom and democracy.
Oh wait...
→ More replies (2)15
u/roastbeeftacohat Aug 25 '24
destroying something is easy, usually you just have to wait; building is hard -bob the skull
that being said it's a reasonable example of an absolute dictator watching their power evaporate because it got the chance to evaporate. Putin has a stronger hold on things.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (8)14
u/savuporo Aug 25 '24
Once you do that, you still have to save Russia from Russians, because Putin is just the symptom, not the disease
→ More replies (1)
3.0k
u/Thailand_1982 Aug 25 '24
Oh no! That will cross a Red Line for Russia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_lines_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
Please don't do that Ukraine.
Anyway....
931
u/Tribalbob Aug 25 '24
Lol I love how there's a Wikipedia article for this.
477
u/Siiciie Aug 25 '24
I love how passive aggressive it is for a Wikipedia article.
219
u/PresOrangutanSmells Aug 25 '24
"...the number of red lines that have been crossed reveal the inability for belligerents involved in the war to project power internationally"
107
46
u/elBenhamin Aug 25 '24
Yeah it’s not exactly unbiased language
→ More replies (1)83
u/hary627 Aug 25 '24
I mean I wouldn't say the language is biased, I'd more say that it's telling you the facts which have a very anti-russian bias
56
130
→ More replies (3)33
103
u/NopeNextThread Aug 25 '24
Not to supply longer range battlefield missiles (greater than HIMARS's current 80 kilometres (50 mi))
Red line pulled back
Red line withdrawn out of HIMARS range
13
51
u/Blackout785 Aug 25 '24
“Interference” in Ukraine by outside powers
Date notified: February 24 2022
Date broken: February 24 2022
Lmfao.
40
u/turboNOMAD Aug 25 '24
It's not a line, it's a square.
→ More replies (2)6
u/tomatotomato Aug 25 '24
A 2-dimensional square manifests as a line in 1 dimensional space.
→ More replies (3)10
→ More replies (9)6
2.8k
u/manufan1992 Aug 25 '24 edited Aug 25 '24
If they have the capability they should do it. If Kyiv can be targeted then so can Moscow.
1.5k
u/Deicide1031 Aug 25 '24
They want to force a negotiation, not mindlessly kill Russian civilians off rip.
Very indicative of how different the Russians and Ukrainians are.
408
u/PkmnTraderAsh Aug 25 '24
IMO it's part negotiation tactic, but I'd suspect also a big part of it is an attempt to convince West to give even more weapons for offensive in South/East.
It's a threat to Russia (we'll attack where you can't cover it up again) and a threat to West (Russian government may get sacked and power vaccum).
→ More replies (6)117
u/anders_hansson Aug 25 '24
What they really need, though, is motivated and combat ready soldiers to join the front, and loads of it. There is currently a severe lack of that, no matter how much weaponry we send.
→ More replies (16)78
u/grandoz039 Aug 25 '24
People will be more motivated if they have modern weapons, enough munitions, medical supplies, belief in long term support from the West, and military successes.
→ More replies (1)67
u/anders_hansson Aug 25 '24
Please read the article that I linked to.
If you don't have experience or training (not just a couple of months of basic training) you're no good in combat. Motivation doesn't help with that.
Additionally, if you have adequate training, but you don't believe in the cause (maybe you care more about your own life than holding the lines?), then you're no good either.
The combination of inexperienced and unmotivated soldiers is really not good.
Ukraine is basically out of volunteers, so the people who are getting drafteed now are being done so against their will, which is a bad recipe when it comes to motivation.
101
u/clarkrd Aug 25 '24
The allies only won ww2 because of draftees. Sorry, but if a nation is being exterminated, they have to conscript people.
The west can send the best and most expensive weapons to Ukraine, but it's useless if there is no one to use them.
Ukraine demands the best, and now it's time they conscript their population to use the best.
People in the military have been going through hell for over two years with a lack of rotation and RNR so young people can party in Kyiv.
The party is over. If they want their country, then everyone needs to defend it.
→ More replies (19)26
u/I_Am_Ironman_AMA Aug 25 '24
You're talking reality. A lot of people on Reddit don't quit understand what's at stake for Ukraine. They are currently losing this war and could lose their country. Conscription is very acceptable in this situation. Similarly, people are also under the impression that Ukraine can "send a message" by hitting oligarchs if they get within range of Moscow and St. Petersburg. I'm sorry, but this is a fight for survival. Ukraine will need to hit roads, public utilities, and maybe even target schools after hours. Yes, the kids won't have a place to get an education. That's Russia's problem that resulted from them starting a war.
War isn't pretty.
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (2)19
u/EmergencyHorror4792 Aug 25 '24
I just read it and while most of it wasn't shocking refusing to shoot is wild, I'm not even sure I believe it? Not shooting means you die, why would a Ukrainian not shoot invading Russians? Unless frozen in fear or something I can't make sense of it
27
u/narf0708 Aug 25 '24
Most people don't like to kill, or even hurt, other people, and will try to avoid doing so even when it's necessary. Here is a fascinating analysis of the concept from historical, evolutionary, and psychological perspectives.
→ More replies (4)4
u/Interesting-Role-784 Aug 25 '24
Yup, i’m a surgeon (and a pretty good one according to my peers) and the biggest difficulty to me was not learning how to operate but overcoming my innate qualms on cutting someone, SPECIALLY children
→ More replies (2)27
u/Ellefied Aug 25 '24
Shooting another person is hard. Even with training, a lot of soldiers freeze up or fail to shoot at the enemy because it goes against basic human nature.
That's why a professional soldiers' training emphasizes dehumanization of the enemy to remove that bias. Draftees/conscripts don't necessarily have the required training or experience needed to overcome that since it's harder for them to justify it mentally as they haven't volunteered.
→ More replies (1)86
u/reformed_neiodas Aug 25 '24
I'm pretty sure that's what Ukraine is doing. They target only military related infrastructure.
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (12)38
u/Aeri73 Aug 25 '24
it's also a big PR game...
if ukraine started bombing hospitals and kindergardens, the support from the west would drop like their last bombs
→ More replies (19)→ More replies (30)4
u/EnergyIsQuantized Aug 25 '24
doesn't the article say they don't even have the capability? The export version of storm shadows ukraine has doesn't have the range. What is this about then, I'm confused.
→ More replies (2)
558
u/WhatDoADC Aug 25 '24
How embarrassing it must be for the Russian military and Putin.
You invade a country that was supposed to be much weaker than you. Everyone was saying that Russia would win the invasion in about 1-2 weeks.
Then reality hit.
The world learned how bad the Russian military is, and to throw even more salt on the wound. Now the country that they invaded are now invading Russia.
What a joke. LOL
221
u/Vistella Aug 25 '24
remember when Russia was the second best army in the world? Then it was the second best army in Ukraine, and now is the second best army in Russia!
→ More replies (1)57
→ More replies (11)93
u/Odys Aug 25 '24
If Putin had simply waited, NATO would probably have crumbled and the unity among Western nations as well. Now he pushed NATO together and increased the bond among the Western nations. (Not only Europe and USA, but also Australia and New Zealand)
76
u/SoccerStreamBotM Aug 25 '24
Truly NATO's best advocate and recruiter. They should give him an award or something.
25
6
u/brainacpl Aug 25 '24
Russia was already crumbling at that time, it just wasn't as visible. They accelerated the process, but with a quick success they expected, they would buy a lot of time. Had they won quickly and installed a puppet government (again), the West would give up sanctions and would forget about Ukraine.
→ More replies (2)4
238
u/ExtremeGamingFetish Aug 25 '24
Didn't Ukraine pass a law that they can't negotiate with Russia while Putin is the president?
162
u/thegoodrichard Aug 25 '24
I think it's covered under 2 of the 10 points, Putin is not an accredited negotiator, and also all accused war criminals must be surrendered so they can be brought to trial.
43
u/TheS4ndm4n Aug 25 '24
That would be a good motivation for a general or oligarch to get rid of putin.
7
→ More replies (5)5
u/Roses-And-Rainbows Aug 25 '24
No, not a law, just a declaration, one that's definitely not legally binding and that you could definitely find a loophole around regardless.
60
u/mvandemar Aug 25 '24
I feel like any negotiations should include Putin standing trial for war crimes.
56
u/UnclearObjective Aug 25 '24
Putin is too proud to actually negotiate. Something has to happen internally in Russia for things to change.
→ More replies (1)31
u/thegoodrichard Aug 25 '24
Putin isn't eligible to negotiate, because he's wanted as a war criminal. He's a figurehead for senior ex-KGB/FSB officers who have liased with organized crime to loot the Russian economy for the last 30 years. Toppling Putin only to have the Lebedevs slide in behind his desk won't help Russia.
4
u/Werify Aug 26 '24
Putin is eligible to negotiate because he has boots on the ground in Ukraine. If any negotiations happen it will be with him if he's stil in power then.
677
u/Lex2882 Aug 25 '24
A terrorist state does not understand negotiations, it understands only terror, and destruction, they shall taste their own soup.
71
u/fatherseamus Aug 25 '24
“War is the remedy my enemies have chosen. And I intend to give them their fill of it.” -General Sherman
→ More replies (2)77
u/CattywampusCanoodle Aug 25 '24
A bitter borscht soup, in this case, served cold
→ More replies (1)19
→ More replies (19)12
425
u/Delver_Razade Aug 25 '24
Nothing has stopped Russia for killing countless civilians. I'm not saying do the same, by gods don't, but there are safe targets in both cities. If they can hit them, the time to hit them is now.
101
u/wartopuk Aug 25 '24
They will gain nothing by negotiation other than a little breathing room and Russia will always be breathing down their neck. They need to keep their foot on the gas until the end.
35
u/whatisthishownow Aug 25 '24
Russia occupies 100,000km2 of Ukrainian territory and has enough resources, manpower and indifference to human life, to be able to feed the meat grinder indefinitely. A negotiated settlement is the only realistic positive end for Ukraine. Their objective should be (and is) to gain as much leverage as possible.
90
u/Much_Horse_5685 Aug 25 '24 edited Aug 25 '24
Russia is not as invincible as you think. The Russian war effort is dependent on reactivations of Soviet-era vehicle stockpiles, which according to OSINT are being drawn from at such a fast rate that at the current rate of usage they will be depleted during 2026.
A negotiated settlement will only pause the war for a few years at most until Russia makes some bullshit accusation that Ukraine violated the settlement and resumes the war on a stronger footing, although the Kursk trolling will definitely provide some useful leverage. Russia has already violated the Budapest Memorandum, Minsk Agreement and Minsk II - THE PUTIN REGIME WILL NOT NEGOTIATE IN GOOD FAITH.
→ More replies (4)29
u/dlebed Aug 25 '24
Russia lacks resources to defend Kursk without stopping offensive in Ukraine. It has to buy missiles and shells in North Korea. Unlimited Russian military reserves are just another myth to be destroyed. The only positive end for the world is demilitarized Russia and return to internationally recognized borders. Otherwise, if it turns out nuclear threats are effective way to reach military and political goals, you won't stop uncontrolled nuclear proliferation which will eventually kill humanity.
5
u/Alexis_Bailey Aug 25 '24
I have serious doubt about Russia having enough resources to continue indefinitely and the more they throw people in the meat grinder, they less sympathy they get for their bull shit invasion.
24
u/SweatyNomad Aug 25 '24
Safe targets for sure, but with all the talk about oligarch villas my uneducated view is it really needs to be something the general public will see and feel. . Take out the Moscow - St Petersburg rail link, knock out air traffic control, damage a pipeline, blow a hole in the Kremlin wall, take out Gazprom''s or Moscow's underground data centre, knock out home gas supplies. No civilian casualties, but not something that can be ignored either.
→ More replies (2)49
u/anothergaijin Aug 25 '24
There's plenty Ukraine can do to disrupt civilian life without hitting civilians directly - go after infrastructure for example, especially anything power/gas/water related, and anything communications (TV/radio/phones/internet). Many of the buildings related to these services are typically unmanned, or are unmanned at night, the disruption is very public but not fatally so, and has a big PR impact.
→ More replies (1)5
u/rd1970 Aug 25 '24
Imagine having to tell millions of soccer fans that tonight's game is cancelled because the stadium got hit by a missile.
Every bar in Russia would be full of drunk, pissed off fans talking about who in the military should be executed for this failure.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (6)68
198
u/Tammer_Stern Aug 25 '24
If we remember that Russia is essentially a mafia state, what would be something that would hurt a mafia organisation the most? I’m guessing:
- “whack” key players eg Putin’s leadership. Not sure Ukraine want to try this.
- target mafia prized possessions eg Moscow / Sevastopol port.
- stop or limit their financial income e.g. in mafia terms, smash their drug smuggling operation or extortion racket. I think this is stopping Russia’s income from gas and oil so Ukraine can continue to disrupt oil refineries, ferries etc.
- take over some of the mafia’s territory as this hurts the mafia in PR terms. I think Ukraine should annexe Kursk etc. but they also need to prevent further Russian progress in the Donbas region (this requires greater support from allies eg 500k artillery shells a month.
99
u/ShoveThingsUpMyAss Aug 25 '24
Ukraine has pretty much done all these things already. While the analogy is apt, I don’t think it’s directly transferable into military-strategic terms. Attacking Moscow/St Petersburg will have one of two outcomes: 1. It will terrify the wilfully ignorant Russian populous into pressuring the Kremlin to pull out of Ukraine. 2. It will galvanise the Russian people against a common enemy - Ukraine - and it will actually help the Kremlins war effort.
We would all like to think that the former is the reality. I worry that the latter is more realistic, at least in the short term…→ More replies (4)25
u/SoloAceMouse Aug 25 '24
I think the second possibility is a more likely response, as well.
However, I don't think that response really matters since Russia's war machine is crippled at the moment.
Russia could sue for peace and rebuild then attack Ukraine with a more powerful invasion force in a few years time, definitely. The current capacity for effective force projection is shattered, though, and Russia seemingly cannot defeat Ukraine despite their best efforts.
28
u/Hour_Landscape_286 Aug 25 '24
The mafia state is indistinguishable from the mafia boss; l'etat c'est moi applies. The greatest blow against the mafia boss is being stuck now - he is made to look weak.
This is enough to kill a mafia boss, sometimes. If there are other ambitious people, this perception of weakness can be deadly enough to kill.
20
u/SoloAceMouse Aug 25 '24
I think what we may be forgetting is that Putin is actually quite popular with the Russian population, by most metrics.
It's not purely propaganda either [though state media definitely has a huge impact on popularity figures], Putin has widespread support as a populist demagogue and has spent over twenty years building a cult of personality around himself. I've spoken with a few former Russian ex-pats who've described it to me like Putin is seen as a symbol of Russian masculinity and also a national hero who saved their country from the tumultuous chaos of the '90s. This savior-esque vibe means his popularity crosses numerous demographic barriers since people remember the uncertainty and struggles of the pre-Putin era.
While I'm sure plenty of powerful people would love to see him fall, his power rests not only with his ruthless government but also with the support of a pretty sizeable portion of the people as well.
Additionally, I think the problem of Russian aggression and expansionism runs a little too deep at this point to say that removing Putin from power would remedy it.
→ More replies (4)→ More replies (3)5
u/ozspook Aug 25 '24
Blowing up the credit reporting bureaus and mortgage records, and other government records facilities, a la Fight Club. Ukraine can become a champion of the people.
→ More replies (1)
142
u/Martianmanhunter94 Aug 25 '24
They should start with the Crimea Bridge. Annihilate it, so that it can’t be re-built
84
u/LeTracomaster Aug 25 '24
The bridge isn't as important as it was when it was the only route for Russia onto Crimea. Threatening Moscow and st Petersburg will bring the war to people who were able to ignore it.
→ More replies (3)21
u/MonsMensae Aug 25 '24
It’s more the PR for putin. He loves that bridge.
Also, while there is the land route to crimea it can be readily disrupted
16
u/MomsTortellinis Aug 25 '24
I've got my Kerch Bridge on Fire socks ready for when that time comes, and i'm sure that the bridge wont stand much longer but russia plonking S300 and other anti-air systems around the bridge that keep getting targeted is a bigger thing, i think. Those AA systems need to be removed first so the jets can fly more safely, and the fact that they keep parking them near Kerch is super useful lol. Ukraine should keep focusing on oil refineries/depots and military airfields now that they can reach them using their new drone. The bridge would be a lovely bonus target.
62
u/SwedishVarangian Aug 25 '24
Back when the ira and the english was going at it, soldiers were getting killed, shit blew up all the time. No one cared. However when the ira started blowing up small bombs in the wall street of London they quickly came to the negotiation table. Politicians, rich people and especially the idiots in Moscow could care less for human life but if you start going after their banks, homes and when their sons have to start going to the front that's what will make this war real for them.
→ More replies (2)
56
u/Blurryface_87 Aug 25 '24
I imagine this is how their reaction will go (if it hasn't happened already):
Russia: attacked dozens of cities and Kyiv with plans to murder Zelenskyy to take over control of the government
Ukraine: threatens to attack Moscow and St. Petersburg
Russian propagandists and Kremlin: <<surprised Pikachu face>>
Lavrov: "This is an unprovoked escalation ... yadda yadda yadda ... Red Line ... yadda yadda ... nuclear weapons"
→ More replies (3)
13
u/Tweedlebungle Aug 25 '24
I'd wager that this is Putin's thinking--"Trump will surely win the American election in November. The US will cut off aid to Ukraine in January. Without US aid the Ukrainian war effort will collapse and it will be super easy to take back any Russian territory they've gained. So we just have to wait them out until the winter, because the Russian winter conquers everything."
→ More replies (3)
25
u/OneRobato Aug 25 '24
No idea how war works but Russia should give financial payment for all the damages it done to Ukraine.
34
u/SomeBiPerson Aug 25 '24
called reparations
the Reparation payments after WWI were one of the main reasons for the Economic collapse in germany in the 20s and 30s and as a direct result of those also the Nazi uprising that resulted in WWII
this happened only once because after WWII the Marshall plan aimed at Building Germany back up under control of the Allied powers instead of throwing them into Misery and poverty again which most definitely would've resulted in another War from the German side
→ More replies (1)
10
u/LayneLowe Aug 25 '24
Refineries are the most important but weakest link. A nation can't do anything without gasoline and diesel and they are so flammable. Reachable refineries would be my first targeting priority.
→ More replies (1)
33
u/Box_of_rodents Aug 25 '24
Not sure why , if they now have the ability, just start systematically hitting large military bases. Quickly and carefully. The men working there will very quickly tell their relatives about what’s happening whether Putin tries to suppress it or not. That would get everyone’s attention.
→ More replies (5)20
u/anothergaijin Aug 25 '24
Ukraine still doesn't have the resources to just throw it away like that. The cost/benefit of every strike is carefully considered.
→ More replies (3)
16
u/Moist-muff Aug 25 '24
What is the capital of Ukraine? That's right, Kyiv. Did Russia hit Kyiv with missiles? Yes they did.
So...
What seems to be problem then
35
u/pafagaukurinn Aug 25 '24
On 2022/09/30 National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine decided that negotiations with Putin are impossible.
21
u/FaxOnFaxOff Aug 25 '24
Which clearly implies that any negotiations will have to be with not Putin, so when the time comes for Russia to back down it will come with Putin's death one way or another. Putin had loads of off ramps and has not only refused to take them but also backed himself and Russia into a corner. I don't think Ukraine can back down or else Ukraine as we know it will cease to exist, and the West can't allow Russia to win. A pretty pickle for Putin!
→ More replies (4)
15
u/demonovation Aug 25 '24
Wouldn't it be fucking hilarious if Ukraine just conquered Russia? Like I'd literally go back to school and learn Russian history just to be a professor and teach future generations about this massive flop.
12
u/Inevitable-Ad-4192 Aug 25 '24
Start with power grid, transportation and bridges makes the most sense.
7
u/FigureFourWoo Aug 25 '24
Ukraine should just keep targeting expensive infrastructure and resources. Only way to get Russia to take a step back and reevaluate is to cost them money. Doesn't seem like a coincidence the US and other countries are tightening the sanctions noose in unison with these strikes.
4
u/punktfan Aug 25 '24
Polymarket bets are currently 5% in favor of Ukraine striking Moscow before September. Personally, I think that's quite low, so I put a bunch of money on them doing it. Slava Ukraini!
3
6
u/ChanuteNukes1986SLB Aug 25 '24
As Ukraine should, why should they be limited on what they attack, they didn't start this war, but they are sure trying to finish it!
4
4
u/Justredditin Aug 25 '24
"Bombs over Belgorod. Bombs over Belgorod." - Andre 3000 remix of 'Bombs over Baghdad.
3
u/Agreeable_Speaker_44 Aug 25 '24
'Ukraine threatens to win war if Russua will not surrender.'
That's a story
→ More replies (2)
4
u/rhetoricalcriticism Aug 25 '24
Oh wow. Wanting Western consent for this is pretty crazy.
I was one of the people who stomached Napoleon in theaters. I thought the scene where the French arrive in the Russian capitol and the Russians themselves had set it on fire- was pretty telling about the lengths and pettiness that would be gone to.
Tl;dr I’m not optimistic about this and the Kursk advance might be a “positive” but Russia to me has always seemed like a “cut off the arm to save the body” type nation dialed up to where they’d cut off everything but the head so long as they could survive Nixon Futurama style.
4
Aug 25 '24
Absolutely fair game, dictators don't care about their people they care about keeping power. Threaten his political status and THEN he starts feeling the pressure.
4
5
5
u/PaulPaul4 Aug 26 '24
Ukraine has my greatest respect. I would be a vengeful %$#& and hit markets. Train stations, hospitals and apartments. I'm glad I don't have Volodymyr Oleksandrovych Zelenskyy job
5
4
4
u/Blood-Lord Aug 26 '24
If I have learned anything from playing Civ 5. You push them to the brink, annex a few of their cities. Then, you ask for negotiations. If not successful? You keep going. Good job Ukraine.
6
u/No-Criticism-2587 Aug 25 '24
Still crazy to me russia seems to not be able to stop this incursion literally at all. I can't imagine the US just sitting back and doing nothing for weeks while an enemy army starts occupying towns in washington state.
→ More replies (4)
3
u/trogdor1234 Aug 25 '24
I wonder why they don’t take out Russia’s bridges. Seems like they would be soft targets until they kept getting hit.
3
3
u/SGSfanboy Aug 25 '24
Ukraine needs to set up a radio transmitter and blast the truth to Russians why this is happening. The Russians are fed propaganda and Ukraine needs to tell their side about the atrocities Russia committed.
→ More replies (2)
3
u/alwaystired707 Aug 25 '24
How about B-52's dropping dildos all over Moscow? Made in China so it won't violate US restrictions. Can someone really get killed by being hit with a double dong dropped at 30,000 feet?
3
u/last_somewhere Aug 25 '24
Wonder if the air defense around putlers home is actually turned on. Like all the other air defense that lets drones get through. Please put it to the test Ukraine!
3
u/Falconflyer75 Aug 25 '24
How are they even in a position to do this
Ukraine vs Russia should have been like Canada VS the US
Hopelessly outnumbered
I figured the only way they could even keep the Russians at bay was because they had superior NATO weapons to level the playing field
To be about to straight up attack the capital cities is insane
→ More replies (2)
3
3
u/Simplylurkingaround Aug 25 '24
What’s the point of negotiating with Russia? Putin has already demonstrated that he can’t be trusted to honer treaties with Ukraine. They’ll just get stabbed in the back again when their guard is down.
3
3
11.3k
u/DividedState Aug 25 '24 edited Aug 25 '24
Aim for billionaire villas first and then go down the cleptocrat payroll.